2018 FIE Congress rule change proposals published

Discussion in 'Fencing Discussion' started by mfp, Oct 27, 2018.

  1. dberke

    dberke Podium

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    I'm sure the referee (or someone nearby) will be able to pull up the live results on their phone...

    Dan
     
  2. Blackwood

    Blackwood DE Bracket

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    The new rule says that, in the case of a double P-Black, the winner is the fencer with the higher initial seeding. The seeds printed on the DE score sheet are the seeds going in to the DE round, not the initial seeds.
     
  3. Mihail

    Mihail Podium

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    Not an epee fencer, so I'm very much observing from the outside, but it seems really silly that they're trying to figure out new ways to punish the refusal to fight instead of changing the rules to incentivize, you know, playing the sport that the competitors allegedly love.
     
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  4. Zebra

    Zebra Podium

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    Right, Joe and Blackwood. I can see the arguments now: we get a double P-black and fencer with the higher seed into DE assumes s/he advances, then learns that the same-rated opponent had a higher initial seed.
    Zebra
    [who had his two last tactical non-coms last night]
     
  5. erik_blank

    erik_blank Podium

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    The new U2F rule states that hits off target in Foil constitute a reset of the 1 minute clock.... Just curious, but I assume that htis would NOT include incidental hits to the floor?
     
  6. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee is a Verified Fencing ExpertMac A. Bee Podium

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    "*t.55* The Referee will disregard touches which are registered as a result of actions...which are made on any object other than the opponent or his equipment."
     
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  7. neevel

    neevel Armorer

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    It seems to me there are two separate things going on, one well-intentioned but Quixotic, and one more nefarious.
    For the former, they seem to be trying to find a way of distinguishing between the two cases of:
    1) Fencers bopping about and half-heartedly sparring in an attempt to disguise unwillingness to fight, and
    2) An earnest but low-scoring bout between a pair of defense-oriented opponents
    without relying on the referee to make an "I know it when I see it" judgement call. The problem there is that there just isn't a good way to do that.

    For the latter, it seems there are some powers-that-be who just don't like the idea of a low-scoring bout at all and want to force everyone to fence in a more flashy, aggressive style. The problem here is, that it's just part of the nature of epee. It's no different from how a baseball game can become a low-scoring pitching duel, or a soccer game between two defense-heavy teams can end up as a 0-0 tie. You don't see MLB or FIFA making heavy handed attempts to eliminate those sort of games because it's an integral part of the nature of the sport and there's no way to do it with out seriously distorting the play or fundamentally altering the sport.
     
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  8. Ancientepee

    Ancientepee Podium

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    That part has also long puzzled me. The same FIE people who have no problem watching a 90-minute (plus ??? minutes of stoppage-time, plus 30 minutes of overtime) soccer game during which no goals are scored are, nevertheless, writing rules trying to prevent 1 minute of a fencing bout from taking place without a touch being scored.

    Has any thought been given to breaking ties similar to soccer's final tie-breaking technique of a shoot-out? Fencer A is placed with his FRONT foot on his end-line. Fencer B has 5 seconds to try to score a touch. Then the situation is reversed with Fencer B on his end line. If both or neither fencer scores, another pairing is done. The bout ends when only one of the fencers scores a touch during one of these pairing.
     
  9. jkormann

    jkormann Podium

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    More people who watch TV understand soccer and what's going on. Not as many people who casually flip to a fencing bout will understand. People do understand scoring with a shot-clock driving the action.
    I'm sure there were similar discussions in 1954 when Basketball started their shot-clock.
     
  10. Ancientepee

    Ancientepee Podium

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    My father played semi-pro basketball in the 1930s and I read some of his newspaper clippings. Reading that the final score of a basketball game was 12-8 and my father was high scorer with 5 points meant that the games were radically different to watch in those days.
     
  11. mfp

    mfp Podium

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  12. Mihail

    Mihail Podium

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    If they'd be willing to be that radical (which I'm sure they're not), my suggestion would be to award different amounts of points for scoring in different parts of the strip.

    If you receive a hit when at least part of your foot is between the en garde lines, the opponent scores 1 point. If you receive a hit outside of "the box" (the middle four meters), but with at least one foot within the next three meters (before the warning line), the opponent receives 2 points. If you're completely past the warning line and receive a hit (final two meters), the opponent gets 3 points.

    As a sabre fencer, I've been vaguely envious of how the strip position in epee has strategic value, since for us it's tactically meaningless after a certain level of experience. So awarding an epee fencer for gaining ground seems like a good way to encourage active fencing.
     
  13. jdude97

    jdude97 Podium

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    I really like this suggestion. I'd love to bout against people doing this as a drill. Sounds like a great alternative to priority.

    A less radical one that I've heard before and liked is that priority is only fenced with the en guard lines as the back lines, you'd still have the coin flip but even less likely that it's relevant. Also some sort of shortening of the strip could be done after non-comm but I don't have a coherent proposal.
     
  14. mfp

    mfp Podium

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    Shootouts and shot clocks will make this more common:

     
  15. anton_fairfax

    anton_fairfax Rookie

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    who are these people casually flicking the channel to watch fencing comps? Surely the rules aren't being rewritten to accommodate channel surfers with no actual/genuine interest in the sport? My country (Australia) has CRICKET as its national sport, so arguments of slow pacing, and rules being incomprehensible to casual observers seem quite absurd, for fencing bouts - especially for epee. Is non-combativity really the deciding factor in increasing interest in fencing?
     
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  16. Zebra

    Zebra Podium

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    And what are people watching? Test matches or Twenty20? You just made FIE's argument.
     
  17. anton_fairfax

    anton_fairfax Rookie

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    That is a good point, but it still applies to the assumed pre-existing fan base/audience, not channel surfers that don't understand or watch cricket normally.

    I'm just not convinced the analogy translates, as I can't imagine the deciding factor in watching fencing is a potential minute of non-combativity, compared to cricket matches that go for days. I mean, what is the actual argument? Are we trying to get actual fencing fans to watch more fencing? And is non-combativity reducing this viewership? Or are we trying to snag half-interested casual observers and draw them in? And does tinkering with these rules make a fencing bout more coherent or not to this uninitiated audience?

    I am not convinced the arguments follow, or that the changes will have the effect... But that is an intuition... I'm not sure how the FIE measures ratings or viewership or interest... the data on that would be interesting. It seems, from this discussion, there is an over-emphasis on making fencing palatable to people who aren't really going to watch it anyway, let alone the question of if these changes make any difference to that.
     
  18. jdude97

    jdude97 Podium

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    As neevel said above, I think the underlying issue is that legit unwillingness to fence for tactical reasons is very bad to watch and should be stopped as soon as possible. The issue then becomes how do you separate that from legit defensive fencing. Arguably this new U2F rule is more forgiving to legit low scoring bouts because it doesn't jump ahead to the next period leading to a shortened bout. You can still have a 9 minute, low scoring bout even if there's a P-Yellow card thrown in somewhere. And as I've said before, I'm a fan of the shot clock (if properly implemented on the scoring boxes) because it increases transparency and decreases referee discretion.
     
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  19. mfp

    mfp Podium

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    Australian viewers know the rules and don't seem to be terribly fussy about format. They'll enthusiastically watch their national team in Test matches, ODI or Twenty20I formats as long as one criterion is met: their national team is winning (or at least competitive). Australian TV ratings for international level cricket are way down this summer because the national cricket team isn't winning, isn't even really competitive, and, oh yeah, embarassed themselves and the entire country with a cheating scandal involving ball-tampering.
     
  20. Gav

    Gav is a Verified Fencing ExpertGav Moderator!!

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    Yeah pretty much.

    https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/yin-yang-basketball/
     

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