Clear tape inside guard

Discussion in 'Rules and Referee Questions' started by jkormann, Apr 23, 2019.

  1. jkormann

    jkormann Podium

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    Is clear tape allowable to secure wires (epee or foil) inside the guard? The wires are properly enclosed in spaghetti tubing.
    If so, which rule is not being broken by using clear tape?

    Background: A local ref saw the tape and yellow-carded me for it. When I asked why it wasn't allowed, he asked if there was a rule allowing it. Hard to prove a negative, so I removed the tape. Other refs have seen the tape and didn't have a problem.
    The tape is used to secure the wires since I've had them drift to where a thumb can catch and break them.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2019
  2. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee is a Verified Fencing ExpertMac A. Bee Podium

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    *Rule Specific to Epee m31.7*: "The two wires coming from the tip must be protected by two insulating sheaths, one for each wire, from the point where they enter the guard right up to the two insulated connections on the plug socket. *Regulation equipment and checking of equipment by the Referee t.68* "...ensure that the insulation of the wires inside the guard...conforms with the Rules."
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2019
  3. jkormann

    jkormann Podium

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    Mac, to clarify, the wires are in individual sheaths / tubing. I'll update the original post.
     
  4. anton_fairfax

    anton_fairfax Made the Cut

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  5. anton_fairfax

    anton_fairfax Made the Cut

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    Also, regarding foil, I’m not 100% sure what the rules say, but I’d assume the issue of tape is irrelevant since there’s nothing you can do to modify the wire to cause an on target light, without touching the opponents lame. Plus there’s only one wire. So that kind of cheating is effectively impossible right?
     
  6. jkormann

    jkormann Podium

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    Not to knock Sam, because he's very knowledgeable and a very nice person, but he's an Armorer.
    I'm hoping for a Ref to weigh in with a referanceable statement.
     
  7. DHCJr

    DHCJr Armorer

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    Very true, but that is not what Opaque tape could do in hiding a switch. Let us say, you hit your opponent and get a valid light. It was clear to everyone, even in the nosebleed section that your opponent did not even try for a touch. They ask the referee to test their weapon and low-&-behold, it doesn't work. Wouldn't a switch that could make your weapon not work on command be to their advantage.

    jormann, you just said it local. As far as proving a negative, you don't. They is saying clear tape is not allowed. It is their responsibility to show the rule is not allowed. A policeman says you can't wear brown shoes with a black suit. Do you have to prove there is no law that says you can. The rule they think they are applying is m.5.2, especially m.5.2.f, which a Opaque could hide.

    If they do it again, ask them is there a rule that does not allow you to use clear tape, besides I said you can't. Another example, if he said show me a rule that allows you to wear glasses. If not, you can't wear them.
     
  8. K O'N

    K O'N Podium

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    This is the kind of nonsense that the bottom 10% of epee refs get into for no good reason. It's honestly maddening. The same ref, once you take the tape off, will reach under the pad and flick your wires back and forth every time they check your weapon. Near the end of the pool one of the wires will break and he'll card you for your weapon not working. Try not to kill him.

    There's no rule against clear tape. But the bottom 10% of refs are going to say stupid nonsense like "What rule allows it?", which is honestly the most idiotic thing I can imagine someone asking.

    So, such refs exist, and being right is no defense when you're stuck on a strip with one of them unless you want a full blown argument and a bout committee and so on. So get some clear bell pads, and if you still want to stabilize the wires, touch a drop of CA on them to fix them to the bell guard. It's not visible like tape, so no one will object.
     
    Privateer and DHCJr like this.
  9. Mac A. Bee

    Mac A. Bee is a Verified Fencing ExpertMac A. Bee Podium

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    Loop the wire inside your guard under the pad.:rolleyes:
     
  10. neevel

    neevel Armorer

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    There's another avenue for cheating, which is to make a weapon unable to register a touch when presented to the referee so that an opponent's touch could be annulled. For foil, having an bit of insulation on the wire missing so that pressing it against the inside surface of the guard would create a B-C short would accomplish this. Depending on the scoring machine in use (Faveros would allow this, SGs not), the same trick would also prevent an epee from putting on a light.
     
  11. DHCJr

    DHCJr Armorer

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    Actually, in Foil no box will be able to catch this. In Epee, both the SG and Eigertek ignore any B-C input. So as you say that trick will not work.
     
  12. anton_fairfax

    anton_fairfax Made the Cut

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    Oh yeah, I did consider that you could short the wire to disable the weapon, but I forgot that there’s a potential reason to do that intentionally - seeking an annulment due to a non working weapon.
     
  13. wwittman

    wwittman DE Bracket

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    that's a lot of effort and potential risk for ONE potential touch
     
  14. SJCFU#2

    SJCFU#2 Podium

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    The same could be said of many cheats. Sometimes that one touch can make all the difference.
     
  15. Purple Fencer

    Purple Fencer Podium

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    Especially in pentathlon.
     
  16. jkormann

    jkormann Podium

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    What about the guy who used to hit his foot during the attack to show a touch? IIRC, he was so fast and good it took video replay to catch. How many hours to get to that level...
     
  17. jkormann

    jkormann Podium

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    And thanks to everyone who replied. I'm pointing the ref to this thread, and I hope the FOC can update their web page (after it moves to USFencing domain..) to formally clarify this.
     
  18. neevel

    neevel Armorer

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    It's worth noting that the same behavior that allows SG and Eigertek boxes to still register in epee if A- or B- are shorted to C will also cause them to register a false touch if A and B are simultaneously shorted to C. This often shows up if an epee has been assembled poorly and the wires and spaghetti tubing get pinched where they enter the guard (if a ref encounters this, it should be normally be treated as an assembly error or equipment failure and not attempted fraud), but removing a bit of insulation from both wires and routing them so one could press them against the inside of the guard together with the thumb is a cheat that could be used to exploit that.
     
  19. Goldgar

    Goldgar Podium

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    Thanks! ;)
     
  20. mfp

    mfp Podium

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    Note that that cheat requires someone to ... remove bits of insulation from both wires (making for a modified weapon / potentially detectable cheat), have some way to hunt down and press those specific uninsulated bits against the guard to short them together, and have a scoring box that will set off a light when A-B-C are all shorted together. On a Favero and some other boxes, doing that will set off a light for them, but at the same time it also sets off a suspicious looking grounding light. So yeah, while some people could attempt to cheat that way, it's a way that's somewhat clumsy, risky, extra suspicious looking to the observant, with detectable modifications or "non-conformance".

    Going back to the OP topic of individual referees (and/or their Commission) making up random epee wiring related rules or interpretations regarding clear tape or, say, forbiding mousehole use ... Dudes, modifying epees to cheat is so 1970s. Given how standard epees are assembled, excessive worry and attention to tape or epee wire insulation and routing under the guise of supposedly caring about and preventing cheating seems misguided. People figured out how to cheat with unmodified epees long ago.
     

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