Point in Saber

[laughingduelist]

Why do sabreurs use the point so rarely? As an epeeist it makes perfect sense to me that one would want to, as a thrust is more difficult to parry and more efficient than a slash. Can someone explain this to me?

[frenzl]

i'm not a saberist but for sabre sing the point is not the premise of the weapon it derived from calvary swords in which the point was never used.
-and slashig techniques just look cooler!

[Peach]

A thrust is easier to parry in sabre, actually.

I do use point quite a bit myself.

[Inquartata]

Point is really better suited to defense in sabre. Even then an extended blade is something of a "gift" if you know what to do with it...which I alas do not!

I have had some success using the old Italian guard position, which you could say is halfway between modern guards and PIL. But again it's been more because people were unfamiliar with it than from any inherent superiority.

[KShan5[PrFC]]

Plus, look at the handle, you don't get as much point control as you do in foil or epee.

[Tireur]

It makes for a great surprise. You can get a nice stunned look on their face when you attack and hit with the point.

I also use it with great success as a feint of stop to draw the counter-time. It's a beautiful thing........

[Grey]

Its probably because of the temptation to slash/cut instead of thrust. Sabre-ist have a high tendency to take the easier way out... I can't resist it at times too. It does looks cool as mentioned and is infact, alot easier to parry in my opinion.

Its habit I guess. A straight thrust is of course, easy to parry. Thrusts with disengages in sabre will be deadly.

My point of view is that I can see the sabre swinging its full 180 degrees or even 90 degrees arc before it comes to me. And when it does, it'll reach its maximum point in which I can just pull my face/arm back a little and it will miss. Whereas a thrust going straight will always hit anything in its trajectory. Even if the attack falls short, you can always perform a continuation and it'll still be considered your attack as it has not stop.

Of course, people vary with their fencing styles and I'm sure some of you may disagree with my arguement.

[Kemijaba]

From my experience using point attacks can be a deadly weapon in saber, and as others have stated its a nice way to throw your opponent off, especially if you use it in the sense of an "epee attack" and attack to the wrist. Line is a different story though, you have to be pretty darn confident in your abilities with it or else it's a give-me prise de fer for your opponent. Point is a valuable thing to learn in saber, I think it's highly under-used.

[KShan5[PrFC]]

I don't think using slashes, or cuts, are the "easy way out", as some have said. Thrusting in sabre is not more effective than cuts. Granted as some have said, it adds a nice extra level to your game, but cutting is what sabre is. You tell me if you parry 5(head) which is more effective, a thrust to mask, or a cut to mask? The actually more efficient, and is not just used because it "looks cool".

[Tireur]

but cutting is what sabre is

Mostly. But remember, it is a weapon of cut and thrust.

You tell me if you parry 5(head) which is more effective, a thrust to mask, or a cut to mask?

Depends.

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by Grey
Its habit I guess. A straight thrust is of course, easy to parry. Thrusts with disengages in sabre will be deadly.

Must be why it's so widespread, then.

a thrust going straight will always hit anything in its trajectory. Even if the attack falls short, you can always perform a continuation and it'll still be considered your attack as it has not stop.

It's a little different in sabre. Even with a point attack ( not PIL ), once your attack falls short, it is over. ROW passes to the opponent at that point, unless he tarries or makes a mistake ( like searching for your blade ). Your continuation will be out of time and a remise.

Because of the speed of sabre---a cut moves faster than any thrust can, because of it's accelerating around an axis, not moving linearly---and because of the nature of human reaction time, a thrust can often be "beaten" by a cut to the arm. Lines are useful, but they aren't a botte secrete for sabre..any more than the "flick" ( ie a sabre cut which makes the tip, not the edge, land on target ) is the botte secrete in foil...

That said, the point is a useful addition to a sabre fencer's bag of tricks, and one must know how to deal with it from the other end...not always easier done than said...

[sabreur]

Yeah, what Inquartata said.

I use the point in line to slow down someone who rushes their attacks, and to set up stopcuts and attacks into preparation. Also, one of my coaches was a pretty good foil fencer, and he works a lot on disengages off a PIL, which can be extraordinarily effective.

I will also occasionally feint to flank, disengage under the bell and end the attack with a point to chest. This can be useful both as a regular attack and in simultaneous situations--every once in a while, you can close out the other guy's attack to flank with it.

What I hate is an epee fencer who fumbles around trying to score a point to the arm, which can be annoying until you figure out how to respond. My answer is to attack to his/her arm--I win the touch on right of way.

Regards, MR

[Grey]

No what I meant by fall short... is that halfway during your lunge, you realise that the opponent retreated a little out of distance. Therefore you can "over-lunge" alittle or improvise in a certain way which is still your ROW as you have not stop movement. Correct me if I'm wrong.

As for the cut/thrust part... I find myself beating sabre-ist who attempts to cut me the minute they parried my attack. It ended with me stepping backward and a passe. Perhaps because they tend to swing their weapon instead of actually slashing properly.

As for the thrust part with disengage.. I've used it rather effectively and no one got a clue as to what I was doing. Maybe its because the sabre-ist here suck. Overseas could be different.

[Hurriranger]

there was this guy who only attack was thrust. but he did it in such a way it was hard to parry properly. just needed the right timing and distance.

[U.M.Amherst.Sabre95]

I used a fair bit of point in the past, primarily as a means to:

a. Bait the opponent in an attempt to take the blade...

b. Prepare for a stop cut...

c. Change tempo when facing an aggressive competitor...

However, something I haven't seen mentioned yet: how the use of point is judged in terms of calling the action.

You see a fair amount of simultaneous action in Sabre, usually with like cuts to the head or flank. However, in those actions where both fencers arrive simulataneously, but one using point (not point-in-line) while the other uses a cut... I have seen more than a fair share of these actions called in favor of the fencer using the cut rather than point.

IMHO, I believe this stems from:

a. A relative lack fo experience in calling point in terms of sabre...

b. An inability to see the action as clearly with point as one might using a cut...

Thoughts?

[sabreur]

Originally posted by U.M.Amherst.Sabre95

You see a fair amount of simultaneous action in Sabre, usually with like cuts to the head or flank. However, in those actions where both fencers arrive simulataneously, but one using point (not point-in-line) while the other uses a cut... I have seen more than a fair share of these actions called in favor of the fencer using the cut rather than point.

IMHO, I believe this stems from:

a. A relative lack fo experience in calling point in terms of sabre...

b. An inability to see the action as clearly with point as one might using a cut...

Thoughts?

I see the opposite happening. One fencer attacks with the point, and the other attacks with a cut. Because the extension of the arm is more dramatic with the point, the fencer attacking with the point gets the touch, even though it should have been simultaneous.

Different directors, but they are all blind...

Many years ago, when we still fenced sabre with side judges, I was in a pool with one guy that just could not see a touch. One of the better fencers in the pool, after this guy missed yet another call, looked at him and asked if his dog barked one or twice for a valid hit... Took about five minutes to restore order.

MR

[Philistine]

Originally posted by Grey
No what I meant by fall short... is that halfway during your lunge, you realise that the opponent retreated a little out of distance. Therefore you can "over-lunge" alittle or improvise in a certain way which is still your ROW as you have not stop movement. Correct me if I'm wrong.

In sabre, the attack is over when the front foot hits the floor--if your thrust hasn't hit by then, it's a remise.

As for the cut/thrust part... I find myself beating sabre-ist who attempts to cut me the minute they parried my attack. It ended with me stepping backward and a passe. Perhaps because they tend to swing their weapon instead of actually slashing properly.

As for the thrust part with disengage.. I've used it rather effectively and no one got a clue as to what I was doing. Maybe its because the sabre-ist here suck. Overseas could be different.

A thrust is a good tool--but any one-trick pony is going to be beaten after just a little bit of time. Perhaps you need to fence better sabre fencers? There are some over here too, you know....

Also--we generally prefer the term "cut" over "slash." Much as I'm sure the pointy-weapon fencers probably prefer the term "thrust" over "jab."

--Philistine

[Peach]

I go by the hand, and once when I was refereeing a low-level college meet in which some of the sabre fencers were converts from foil, they started to think I gave priority to the point attack. They asked me afterwards, and I said no, the former foil fencers were just used to starting fast when making point attacks, so when they switched from cuts to point, they could steal the time.

Unfortunately, many sabre referees don't see point as an attack; they think of it as failed line or else it's a counter-attack.

[kalivor]

Originally posted by U.M.Amherst.Sabre95
I used a fair bit of point in the past, primarily as a means to:

a. Bait the opponent in an attempt to take the blade...

b. Prepare for a stop cut...

c. Change tempo when facing an aggressive competitor...

However, something I haven't seen mentioned yet: how the use of point is judged in terms of calling the action.

You see a fair amount of simultaneous action in Sabre, usually with like cuts to the head or flank. However, in those actions where both fencers arrive simulataneously, but one using point (not point-in-line) while the other uses a cut... I have seen more than a fair share of these actions called in favor of the fencer using the cut rather than point.

IMHO, I believe this stems from:

a. A relative lack fo experience in calling point in terms of sabre...

b. An inability to see the action as clearly with point as one might using a cut...

Thoughts?

Complete opposite, in my experience. I'm more likely to get a "simultaneous" action called my way when I use my thrust (to my opponent's cut). I've never had one called against me when I thrust.

[U.M.Amherst.Sabre95]

"Unfortunately, many sabre referees don't see point as an attack; they think of it as failed line or else it's a counter-attack."

Bingo, that's the impression I get.