Point in Saber

[BrianH]

Originally posted by Hurriranger
there was this guy who only attack was thrust. but he did it in such a way it was hard to parry properly. just needed the right timing and distance.

I believe the last line tells it all, for any weapon. It is also the reason why experienced fencers with bad knees and mortgages can often surprise younger competitors with springy legs and all the energy in the world. You just need the right timing and distance.

BH

[Peach]

Originally posted by BrianH
I believe the last line tells it all, for any weapon. It is also the reason why experienced fencers with bad knees and mortgages can often surprise younger competitors with springy legs and all the energy in the world. You just need the right timing and distance.

BH

Gawds, I sure hope so . . .

That would explain yesterday. I got my husband to videotape me in a women's sabre tournament yesterday, and several of the competitors were in their teens (though three of us, including me, were veterans). I was startled to find that though I felt as if I were zipping up and down the strip with great celerity, on the tape I don't appear to be moving very much at all, just doing some light footwork and occasionally moving my hand forward. . .

And yet I won.

[dekko]

I do know many epee fencers who fence sabre once or twice a year and really like the idea they can hit the wrist without having to overcome the weight or travel of an epee point. Any contact with the lame turns that light on.

As for your question, in the early 90's when 99.99% of sabre was fenced under priority, the line was the thing. Typical sabre bout, together, together, PIL right, PIL left, repeat. When the priority sitution left sabre the line kind of left sabre. I suspect the line and how to deal with it is why we still see some of the 'old guard' still near the top of sabre.

If you are a true epee fencer try sabre with the line, just don't run at the opponent.

[pkt]

Originally posted by Peach
Gawds, I sure hope so . . .

... I was startled to find that though I felt as if I were zipping up and down the strip with great celerity, on the tape I don't appear to be moving very much at all, just doing some light footwork and occasionally moving my hand forward. . .

And yet I won.

Congrats.

As the tai-chi-chuan people would tell you: It's not the speed, but the timing, i.e. the timeliness of the action as well as the distance that'd safe the day.

I think, most lower level/beginning sabreurs don't move as well, so your moving just out of range...doesn't have to be quick, just just in time...


PK

[pkt]

should see the 2002 MS WC sabre final between Pozdnizkov and Pillet. The latter surprised Poz with at least 2 point attacks... but by the 3rd time he tried it, Poz was onto his game and smartly moved out of the way.
IOW, it can be and has been done.

The standard, accepted MO for deploying a PiL is to step back, let the opp't march fwd, hopefully still doinghis preparation, you laid out the PiL, stay put, and let the opp't run onto the PiL. Without the step back, most refs would give the RoW to the opp't who's "collapsing the distance".

I do the Pillet-style point attack - with my foil background, it's fairly easy - in tournaments, I surprise a lot of people with the audacity of using a point attack. In the club, my clubmates know the action, so it's not as successful. The point here is: Don't overuse it.

I also use it as a 2nd-intention attack. There are two main counter-actions against a PiL, so one can easily anticipate the ripsote. I did this in a tourney a few times in the DE, and got a lot of ooohs and aahs... There is no better way to devastate an opp't's morale than to do a counter-riposte or 2nd riposte.

PK

[Kemijaba]

Originally posted by sabreur
I see the opposite happening. One fencer attacks with the point, and the other attacks with a cut. Because the extension of the arm is more dramatic with the point, the fencer attacking with the point gets the touch, even though it should have been simultaneous.

I completely agree. I too, have seen this happening in a lot of my past tournaments, the fencers attacking with the point can appear to close distance more quickly than a fencer attack with a cut, thereby winning the touch. Matter of fact, I've gotten more than a few points trying this.

I also agree with disliking the referring to cuts as "slashes". "Slashes" seem to speak of someone wildy swinging around the weapon praying somehow that they hit target. Cuts are controlled and deliberate actions. Your not going to find anyone worth a buck wildly slashing around, that's not a saber fencer IMO, that's just someone that doesn't know what they are doing. Sorry about the rant, a few fencers in our club also call them "slashes", and it just gets on my nerves.

[kix_jgn]

i use the thrust often in sabre bouts: 1) because i am also a foilist; and 2) i think its faster-you easily reach the target (compared to the cut) when you combine it with the lunge and when your opponent is "bend arm". however, the cut is one featurethat makes sabre unique.

[whtouche]

I guess what can be concluded from this thread is that thrusts aren't superior to cuts, but they are indeed a useful tool have in your bag when you're on strip.

Covaliu frequently uses point attacks into preperation simply because it just requires him to extend his arm thus wasting as little time as possible.
One of the most useful point attacks Ive come across is in an otherwise simultaneous action if your opponant is preparing for a cut and is exposing his wrist at all, if you can land point on and stick it, you'll usually get the attack in prep call.
I've done this several times, not all of them on purpose - it's a very gratifying touch to get.

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by sabreur
I see the opposite happening. One fencer attacks with the point, and the other attacks with a cut. Because the extension of the arm is more dramatic with the point, the fencer attacking with the point gets the touch, even though it should have been simultaneous.

I've seen it go both ways, as well as being called simultaneous. But then, I've also seen truly simultaneous attacks where the fencer who attacked high was given ROW over the fencer who attacked low ( both cutting ), merely because of some wierd optical effect of perspective or something...

Talking of the "old guard", the final bout of the Vet MS at Palm Springs this year, with Mormando vs Korfanty, featured quite a lot of this point work...including an extended period ( for sabre ) when they BOTH had PIL at each other, and just stood there staring each other down...almost like epee!

[Grey]

Well I'll disagree with the point about priority being over once the front feet hit the ground. Ah well.

I did give priority to the fencer who attacks with point and inline over the fencer who cuts. Simply because by attacking in point, you are effectively already threatening the opponent and it should appear obvious. Perhaps its bias but oh well.

ps : There isn't a need to say Tai Chi Chuan, simply Tai Chi is enough. Chuan means fist in chinese actually and Tai Chi conveys the idea across well enough

[Philistine]

Originally posted by Grey
Well I'll disagree with the point about priority being over once the front feet hit the ground. Ah well.
{snip}

Just curious--you disagree with the sabre rule that says this (t.75(b)(1)) or you were unaware of it?

--Philistine

[Hurriranger]

^^^ no need to go and find the exact article lol. but yea, ive always been told that soon as your front foot lands, ur attack is over. which is why i try to lure people into lunging and quickly retreat out of distance.

[Inquartata]

That's the beauty of the distance game: instead of both fencers just attacking headlong, to make the opponent think you're attacking ( or counterattacking ) and then make his best attack fall an inch short...and bang!

[Hurriranger]

yep, we are indeed very sneaky people

[Kemijaba]

To quote an Adam Sandler movie "sneaky sneaky"

though I prefer the term "crafty"

I love the foot game in saber, there is sooo much more finesse involved in saber than most realize...

[Grey]

No I meant that when you quite literally say that the foot touch the floor because according to manipulative interpretation one can argue that the opponents right feet touched the floor and has not scored. Therefore his priority has being taken away and whoever lunges a split second later would score because he'll hit before his feet touched the ground while the person who lunged first would only hit just as his feet touches the ground. Its abit of a contradiction/confusion if you ask me.

I don't fence sabre therefore I did not know about that rule. I've being trying to find the FIE book but all I can find is in French and the bloodied English demands at least 8 pounds for it.

[sabreman]

When sabre still had the fleche + priority the PIL was very effective. The fencer that had priority was usually in attack mode trying for simo so PIL was a good defense to stop the attack. It can still be used that way to slow down attackers but it is not common. Mormando has always been a master of using the PIL. He always killed me until I realized I was fencing him to fast. Steve also doesn't like the PIL put back at him. LOL!

[Inquartata]

It's when the front foot lands during the delivery of the attack. The advances and lunges made while the arm is still extending, or while in preparation, are thus not counted in this respect...

[sabreur]

Originally posted by Grey


I don't fence sabre therefore I did not know about that rule. I've being trying to find the FIE book but all I can find is in French and the bloodied English demands at least 8 pounds for it.

You can download the American translation off the USFA site: www.usfencing.org/.

MR

[pkt]

Originally posted by Kemijaba
To quote an Adam Sandler movie "sneaky sneaky"

though I prefer the term "crafty"

I love the foot game in saber, there is sooo much more finesse involved in saber than most realize...

Hear! Hear!

One has to be a sabreur to appreciate this subtlety of the sabre game.

In foil, you lunge, your foot lands, your point doesn't, you still have the RoW!!! what kind of horse manure is that!!! Ah the subtleties of foil....

PK