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diegovega · 02-08-2004, 05:12 PM

I would like to obtain an electric Italian epee. Does anyone know where to buy or how to build? I had heard that they weren't made anymore(?).

Kemijaba · 02-08-2004, 06:31 PM

Triplette used to sell an italian grip, although I do not know if they still do, they may have finally removed it from their catalog. The grip is illegal for competitions however, but if you just want to build it for the fun of it you still can. It's just a matter of finding the necessary pieces.

Inquartata · 02-08-2004, 07:56 PM

The grip ( I presume it's the Italian with the crossbar and the ricasso that's meant ) is not illegal. It's just very out of favor and thus seldom seen...and commensurately difficult to find. I have an Italian epee, non-electric bladed though. It came from Santelli, but I don't know whether they still sell them. You may have to go to Negrini in Italy for blades...

neevel · 02-08-2004, 11:53 PM

Chris-

Negrini lists Italian electric epees, with a false-ricasso. That's just about the only place you'll find one. With trans-atlantic shipping, you'll probably pay $150-160 for a non-FIE weapon. You could just order the electric guard, grip, pommel, and false-ricasso and the buy a blade over here to mount the hilt parts on.

Santelli only lists false ricasso dry epees (and the false ricassos I've seen from them recently are just a squashed piece of copper pipe).

Kemijaba · 02-09-2004, 03:34 AM

Really? I have been under the impression that this grip is illegal as the Rule Books States:

m4.

"5. The grip must not include any device which can increase in any way the protection afforded to the hand or wrist of the fencer by
the guard: a cross bar or electric socket which extends beyond the edge of the guard is expressly forbidden."

I suppose the if the crossbar is contained within the radius of the bell, then it would be legal, and if this is what your refering to, I apologize for the misunderstanding.

FlamingDeth · 02-09-2004, 03:46 AM

http://www.thefencingpost.com/Classical_Fencing.htm

I can vouch for the fact that these are indeed true ricasso Italian gripped electric epees.

vraptor · 02-09-2004, 04:27 AM

You can still get an Italian grip from Triplette. I have purchased several over the past year. They will require a false ricasso but you can easily make one with half inch copper tubing. The two tricks to this are 1) cutting the ends square and 2) getting the length right. Depending on your skill level, you might have to make several, so I'd suggest buying at least a foot of tubing. I'd also recommend that you buy one of those little tubing cutters that plumbers use (they look a little like a beefy C-clamp) so that you can both cut the tubing square and prevent burrs on the outside of the metal. You can squash the tubing with a vise or a hammer but I left mine round with no problems. Also, don't forget to cut a small dimple in the end to accomodate the wires.

Triplette sells two Italian grips. One has a half inch shorter handle and a consequently deeper quillion than the other. It gives your fingers slightly more room. If you have a large hand, this is the one to ask for. If you have a smaller hand, the longer grip and shallower quillion will probably fit you better.

Italian grips are NOT illegal, although this myth continues to perpetuate itself, even with people who should know better. At last year's Summer Nationals in Austin, I had a Director and the FOC tell me that they were illegal. I made them drag out the rule book and prove it and there was nothing in the rules that prevented the use of an Italian so long as the quillions didn't extend past the guard.

There is an old thread on Italian grips in this forum that you might want to read.

neevel · 02-09-2004, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kemijaba
Really? I have been under the impression that this grip is illegal as the Rule Books States:

m4.

"5. The grip must not include any device which can increase in any way the protection afforded to the hand or wrist of the fencer by
the guard: a cross bar or electric socket which extends beyond the edge of the guard is expressly forbidden."

I suppose the if the crossbar is contained within the radius of the bell, then it would be legal, and if this is what your refering to, I apologize for the misunderstanding.

Your supposition is right. As long as the crossbar doesn't project beyond the guard, it's legal.

-Dave

vraptor · 02-10-2004, 01:50 AM

Yup. That's the rule.

There is another rule (and I don't know where it is) that states that a grip may not combine a French pommel with other projections on the grip which is the basis for outlawing the Spanish grip. Nor may the grip allow the fencer to hold the grip in more than one way. But the Italian can be gripped at least three ways that I have found and probably more. The rules regarding grips are confusing, poorly written, and the purpose that they serve is questionable. Pistol grip styles have multiplied like rabbits on Viagra and none of them have been questioned by the Powers That Be so long as a vendor designed and built them.

If you're a crappy fencer to begin with, there's very little that any given grip will do for you. Bouts are won with point control, good foot work and brains.

Inquartata · 02-10-2004, 10:46 PM

I daresay that the Italian falls under the same "grandfather" exception to the held-more-than-one-way stricture that the Fench does. Sometimes age IS good for something!

vraptor · 02-11-2004, 03:59 AM

You're probably right about Italians being grandfathered. I suspect that the Italians would have pitched a hissy if they hadn't been. The Olympics being as political as they are, it wouldn't do to have major European nation miffed at the games.

And speaking as someone who's just shy of the half century mark, I have to admit age does have its advantages, especially against the kids who are one-trick-pony flickers.

Toecutter · 02-16-2004, 11:46 PM

Is there any particular reason why they're so out of favor now? I've been flipping through a copy of On Fencing that I found in a used book store, and Aldo Nadi seemed to be pretty big on the Italian grip. I know the book is a bit antiquated now, but it's odd that the grip would just fade away.

Inquartata · 02-17-2004, 02:26 AM

As with most things, technological development marches on.

The advantage of the Italian over the French was an increase in strength. That function is now better served by the various orthopedic grips which abound. The Italian was thus sort of "put out of a job"....

gojujay · 03-03-2004, 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vraptor

You're probably right about Italians being grandfathered. I suspect that the Italians would have pitched a hissy if they hadn't been. The Olympics being as political as they are, it wouldn't do to have major European nation miffed at the games.

That plus the fact that many courtswords/smallswords had an "Italian" grip. Remember from what foil evolved.