A's B's C's D's U's?? What does it all mean!?

[J.Harris]

Ok, help the foreign guy here, can someone explain your ranking system to me? Like our A's elite fencers? What do you have to do to become a B? How far down does this scale go?

Thanks!

[edew]

Check the USFA classification table:

http://www.usfencing.org/Documents/R...sMan/Class.asp

[Masterurethane]

Whatever it means, apostrophes aren't neccessary there. As, Bs, Cs, Ds etc.

Sorry to be pedantic, but it gets to me

[frenzl]

A's are the highest level of fencers and E is the lowest all the other fencer with out a ranking A through E, such as myself, they are a U (unclassified). you get rankings by beating other fencers with a ranking and with a certain placement in a tournament as in the first post will show you how that works.

[Grey]

That shouldn't be the way to judge fencers. What if someone does an upset on purpose. Otherwise in terms of skill level of the competition its okay.

[Prometheus]

Originally posted by Grey
That shouldn't be the way to judge fencers. What if someone does an upset on purpose. Otherwise in terms of skill level of the competition its okay.

The letter ranks are only used for gross seeding and locker room gloating. Fine seeding and decisions that matter (chiefly, selection of the national team) all depend on national points, which run independently of the letter system.

[neevel]

As Prom. noted, the purpose of the letter classifcation system is to provide a quick, simple way to do the initial seeding of non-elite tournaments. You just want to make sure that the skill levels are reasonably distributed through all the pools. There is a very rough heirarchy of skill captured by the classifications. One can pretty safely say that an A03 who has been actively competing for the last 4 years is a stronger fencer than an E01 who has been actively competing for the last four years. It's not necessarily true that an individual with an A03 is a stronger overall fencer than an individual with a B03 (especially if the A only just earned that classification).

The classifcations come with a year-earned number (e.g., an A03 is an A earned in 2003), and "decay" to the next lower letter if not re-earned within 4 years. The system can be fooled in individual instances by strong fencers who return to competition after a long hiatus, during which their old classification went away. For example, at my club we have two former A's who started competing again after over 10 years away from the sport. For the first couple of tournaments, they were seeded well below what their actual skill level was. By the end of the season, though, both had earned classifications that better indicated their current level of fencing.

Similarly, strong fencers from out of the country, who don't have a letter classification, may be "under-seeded" in the pools. Again, if they continue to compete in USFA tournaments they will earn a classification that roughly reflects their skill level before too long. Provisions do exist for foreign fencers of obvious skill to be temporarily assigned a rating for seeding purposes, if the tournament organizers are aware of who the fencer in question is. There was a Remenyik Open about 8 years ago where a former German Junior national champion who was in Michigan for the year came to fence, got seeded in as a U (nobody recognised him or picked up on the significance of the Tauber warm-ups he was wearing), and handily picked up an A after he steamrolled everyone he came up against.

-Dave

[Cerian]

At a recent (November) tournament here a Hungarian fencer went from a U to an A03, as an example of those pesky foreigners complicating things

[edew]

In that case, the bout committee was too 4n4l to not recognize the skill level and make the proper adjustments.

Look folks, the lett classification system is not the end-all-and-be-all. They're used when Joe Schmoe from Rockland, MD shows up at a tournament in Minnesota. The folks in Minnesota don't know Joe's strength. So his classification will be the way to measure it. (Sort of like the GREs for foreign graduate students.)

If a foreign fencer shows up, like Bojti at that November event, or Anen at his first Southern California event, they should figure out his strength, by asking, and then seed him appropriately. It's fair for him, it's fair for the others. The main goal is to spread the strength fairly across and within each pool.

The letter classification is used to justify the relative differences between the guy who's 4th versus the guy who's 8th, and such.

[Marcos]

is there a list of all the US rankings online?

ps as a foreigner it does seem very confusing!

[esskreemr]

It's not as hard as it seems. People are confusing the term ranking with the term rating. They are very different.

The letter classification system is a RATING system (A-E and U) and has been partially explained. Each division gets a list of its members and their current weapon ratings. Our USFA (United States Fencing Association) membership card also has our current rating on it. The rating system is easily fooled, as Eric Dew mentioned. Everybody generally starts out as a U (Unclassified). It's not uncommon for a fencer who has competed for 10 years to lose his/her rating (they expire after 3 years I think) and compete as a U. The rating system is in place for seeding purposes, and is not a definitive mark of the fencer's ability.

The national RANKINGS are different and are based on points earned in NACs and other Group I tournaments. There is a listing of nationally ranked fencers at www.usfencing.org.

I'm surprised that so many people were using the terms interchangeably. My guess is that's where you're confusion is originating and I can understand why.

[Purple Fencer]

If a foreign fencer shows up, like Bojti at that November event, or Anen at his first Southern California event, they should figure out his strength, by asking, and then seed him appropriately.

I had the (mis)fortune to be in Cedric Anen's pool at his first SoCal event...as I recall he was seeded with at least a C because it was a "C foil", so they did it as fairly as they could. Watching him was an experience...I think I lucked into one touch.

The thing about Cedric....he'll beat you like a red-headed step-child, but he's soooo nice about it! Great guy!

[Army Fencer]

Originally Posted by esskreemr

The rating system is easily fooled, as Eric Dew mentioned.

Are you trying to start another heated debate about the rating system? 'Cause that would be fun!

[CarlKnoch]

I'm not sure if I understand this question correctly. You're talking about what if someone coludes with another to let the lower rated fencer win so he can get his classification changed? Uh.... That's colusion and is covered by the rules. And for a true beginner in the sport to beat a rated fencer (C or above especially) would be highly unusual and unlikely. Referees know this and it would be scrutinized hard I would think.
Cheers!
C

Originally Posted by Grey

That shouldn't be the way to judge fencers. What if someone does an upset on purpose. Otherwise in terms of skill level of the competition its okay.

[esskreemr]

I don't have any problems with the rating system. It's a very general indication of competitiveness. Definitely not perfect, but serves it's purpose.

We could use another system to evaluate actual skill level, something like belts in other martial arts. I know some have tried.

[C.J.]

Originally Posted by Masterurethane

Whatever it means, apostrophes aren't neccessary there. As, Bs, Cs, Ds etc.

Sorry to be pedantic, but it gets to me

http://www.apostrophe.fsnet.co.uk/

Perhaps you should join the Apostrophe Protection Society.

In any case, how can you tell for sure that he was using them as plurals?

[Almightynoitall]

There is nothing so unsettling and disturbing to the 'ratings' system as the power of the newbie fencer... they don't react to feints or attacks at all like you expect from those that have fenced for a significant amount of time, and they have the awesome ability to score touches on the most veteran of fencers (and even surprise them from time to time... see 'fluke' in the dictionary, and you'll find a picture of me winning an epee tournament the first time I had ever picked one up). Granted, it doesn't happen EVERY time, but it sure adds a degree of humility to the sport.

[J.Harris]

if I put "As" I could've meant the word "as".

[rory]

If a foreign fencer shows up, like Bojti at that November event

Bojti? Fairly short guy, dark hair, about 25?
He's a good guy - I used to fence with him at MTK in Budapest.
Is he living in the US now, or was he just visiting?

[Victor]

Well, sure, the letter classification may not be a fair representation of a fencer's skill, but the more important issues are whether the fencer is expected to wear a protective jacket during his training, and which weapon more accurately simulates 'real' swordplay.