the 1924 scoring controversy, settled with a real duel

[Hurriranger]

well i was just reading around and it mentioned something about a Italian and a Hungarian settling a scoring controversy in a real duel at the 1924 olympics. but thats all it said. can someone tell me how it ended

[DHCJr]

I had heard rumors about something like you described. You got me interested so I searched the web and I found an interesting article from The Times (London). It talks of two duels and one of those involves one of our own long time vendors in the U.S., Santelli.

Here is the address. It is an interesting read.

http://www.times-olympics.co.uk/comm...ngancient.html

[Hurriranger]

cool. dueling is no longer legal right? shame

[pammie003]

Umm... "masks are now clear and coloured uniforms distinguish opponents"?? Should it not say "may be clear..."? It just seems that the wording could be misleading to a non-fencer.

Edit: I'm talking about the last paragraph of the article.

[telkanuru]

Originally posted by Hurriranger
cool. dueling is no longer legal right? shame

Indeedy. On a tangent, I've found massachusetts has an archaic law banning the drawing of steel in a public place. Does this mean I can't take my sword out of it's PVC sheath? Alas! Although when my team did that staged duel in a public place, no one arrested us, althought the swords were distincly non-pointy.

[jeff]

Originally posted by DHCJr
I found an interesting article from The Times (London). It talks of two duels and one of those involves one of our own long time vendors in the U.S., Santelli.

Here is the address. It is an interesting read.

http://www.times-olympics.co.uk/comm...ngancient.html

A well known story, already mentioned on this board (see the thread "Hungarian Sabre Influence"). Italo was said to be livid that Giorgio stepped in to take his place in the duel (apparently Giorgio had the right to do that in the code duello due to Italo's age).

I have a NY Times interview with Giorgio dating back to when the company and Salle were still on 6th Avenue in NYC. I'll try to find it and post it here.

[Inquartata]

There used to be many laws banning duelling specifically. As far as I know they've all vanished from the statute books, but a duel would still be punishable under murder, attempted murder, assault and conspiracy laws. In theory you could be charged merely for agreeing to a duel, and the seconds as well...

[Grey]

I might highly suspect it to be Aldo Nadi instead of Aldo Boni lol. This is indeed strange though. I did read up about it on the site but never knew the names of the fencer.

IMO Aldo Nadi's account of a duel was way more exciting than the links.

[jeff]

From the NY Times, circa 1972:

Sports of The Times

The Fencing Master, by Robert Lipsyte

"Now take this country," said George Santelli. "I call you names. You give me a good punch in the nose. I, being 72 years old, would have no chance against you in a fist fight. So, I call a lawyer. I sue. Ah. Childish."

He touched his nose, a beak of great power and majesty above a white moustache, and waited for the traffic noise to subside on Sixth Avenue, directly beneath the fourth-floor window of his famous salle-d'armes.

"A duel would solve many problems," he continued. "We have insulted each other. We have common friends who cannot invite us to the same parties. It becomes very difficult. So, we have a duel with sabres."

"It is not very dangerous. We each bring a doctor, and two seconds. The best fencer among them directs the duel, ready to leap in should either of us become angry or lose control. We have a chance to show courage, save face, derive satisfaction, gain new respect for each other. We shed a little blood, earn a few stitches, throw our arms about each other and drink champagne."

He stretched his tall, still supple body, and raised an arm that, in its day, was said to have borne the strongest sabre in Europe. "Paul Lukas, the actor, came to my father's salle in Budapest. He had insulted his producer, and he had been challenged. We had a week to prepare him for the duel, so I concentrated on teaching him to parry the blow to the head and return it. Secretly, we blunted the sabers so Lukas's face wouldn't be disfigured. The duel went well. They hacked at each other and raised welts. The doctor squeezed a drop of blood from one of the producer's welts, and everyone was very happy."

Salle Santelli

Santelli's father, Italo, ran one of Europe's most famous salles d'armes, a training center for aristocrats and Olympic athletes in an age and in a country that still admired the swordsman. The Hungarian Government had brought Italo to Budapest in 1896 from his native Italy and subsidized his school. In 1924, George was brought here by the New York Athletic Club. He was fencing master there for 25 years.

Santelli has been the dominant figure in American fencing for many yeaears, He coached the Olympic teams from 1928 through 1952, revolutionized technique, and exerted an incomparable spiritual force with his singleminded and selfless dedication to his sport.

Through Salle Santelli, which he opened after World War II, he broke the racial and class restrictions of fencing by encouraging Negroes and holding free classes for public high school students. Tonight, in a rare tribute in this sport, Santelli will be honored at the Statler Hotel.

Santelli admits to having fought only one duel himself, an affair of great complexity. During the 1924 Olympics in Paris, a dispute arose between an Italian fencer and an official. A witness was necessary and Italo Santelli's testimony led to the disqualification of the Italian fencer, and a scandal. The captain of the Italian team, Adolfo Cotronei, wrote a newspaper article denouncing Italo as a renegade and a liar. Italo, 61 years old, challenged Cotronei, who was about 30.

On a Barge Off Abazia

George, unearthing an obscure rule in the dueling code that allowed a son to replace his father under certain circumstances, met Cotronei on a barge in the waters off Abbazia, between Trieste and Fiume.

"We really fenced," said Santelli, staring out his salle window at the Women's House of Detention. "We did not hack. It lasted perhaps three and one-half minutes. He came down like this, so I parried and riposted and struck him on the side of the head. He was temporarily blinded, and so the duel was stopped. He required 12 stitches.

The men met again, at the 1932 Olympics in Los Angeles, and Cotronei stood dinner and drinks, absurdly proud of his scar, the slight squint in his left eye, and the monocle he wore.

"I do not believe," said Santelli, "that there should be dueling in this country at this time. Americans think who won? who lost? and this is not dueling, dueling is saving face and gaining satisfaction. It grows from the culture."

His lips parted for large teeth. "But I must say that dueling was an educational thing. It taught many people to behave properly. You have to prepare for a duel, spend money on equipment, pay the fencing master, pay the doctor, suffer the wounds. The next time you think twice before you call a man an insulting name."

[neevel]

Contronei, as many will have noticed, is the same fellow who also fought a duel with Aldo Nadi, and seemed to have a minor hobby of getting into duels. IIRC, the Contronei-Nadi duel took place before the one with Santelli, and Nadi mentioned that Contronei had been in five duels previous to his.

Every account I've seen of Contronei indicates that he was a brown-nosing mini-Mussolini: a pompous, clueless git who beat up on people weaker than himself and then, drunk with pride, picked fights with opponents he had no business taking on. In short, he was actually more unpleasant a personality than Nadi .

-Dave

[telkanuru]

*sigh* A really good tale, but a real last gasp for honour. It seems many modern fencers and coaches are disrepectful of their roots, throwing tantrums, insulting directors, (flicking ), etc. Not to say some fencers (ex. from what y'all say about Contronei) were plesant people, but there are always a few. There are more now, I think. Too bad, really. Here's a toast to the good ol' days.

[whtouche]

Eye roll.
"the good old days" tend to be over-romanticized. Things are fine the way they are. Im not convinced fencers as a group are any more disrespectful than they were back then. It's just easier now to see that they are, while the past is gone and all we have are accounts of what may have happened.

Make way for progress.

[FlamingDeth]

What I find funny is that earlier this morning I looked in the CFML subforum, and the above article was the first thing that was the first topic in the index.

[jeff]

It's no mystery, FlamingDeth, it's because after I finished typing it in for this board, I figured I might as well post it there for those guys as well....

cheers, Jeff

[pkt]

the Internet is great, isn't it?

Code Duello: The Rules of Dueling

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/duel/sf...ofdueling.html

PK

[pkt]

Originally posted by jeff
From the NY Times, circa 1972:

Sports of The Times

The Fencing Master, by Robert Lipsyte

First item on Google:
Robert Lipsyte's website.
http://www.soemadison.wisc.edu/ccbc/lipsyte.htm

PK

[jeff]

Good find, pkt - but no snail mail or e-mail address. I know he's a columnist at the NYT, and I'll pursue there as well as at the location you found - thanks!