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Grey · 02-06-2004, 10:07 PM

What exactly is a marching attack? And how do you define it?

Does anyone here own an italian grip and is it possible to find a maraging blade for it? If you own the italian grip, do you use a wrist strap with it?

telkanuru · 02-06-2004, 10:53 PM

I believe it is a simple or compound attack (that is, in one line or multiple) that is carried out while the attacker advances down the strip, instead of simply lunging or such.

Since maraging is a treatment applied to the steel of a blade to make it break cleanly (rather than pointily), I see no reason why any italian grip would be incompatable with a maraged blade, unless the tang had been cut down for pistol. If you fence in the US, tho, I believe the italian grip is illigal for competitive use, as it violates the finger(thumb, I think, but remember not) and guard 2 cm rule. For your last question, I have no idea.

DHCJr · 02-06-2004, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by telkanuru
Since maraging is a treatment applied to the steel of a blade to make it break cleanly (rather than pointily), I see no reason why any italian grip would be incompatable with a maraged blade, unless the tang had been cut down for pistol. If you fence in the US, tho, I believe the italian grip is illigal for competitive use, as it violates the finger(thumb, I think, but remember not) and guard 2 cm rule. For your last question, I have no idea.

1) Maraging is a type of steel, not a treatment. Nickel/Titanium Steel, rather than carbon steel. And it is so it breaks less often.

2) An Italian blade has a different tang then a blade use for French or orthopedic grip. I know of no Italian Maraging Blade being made. The main reason, not enough of a market.

3) The Italian handle is not illegal and has never been illegal.

Aeric · 02-06-2004, 11:15 PM

The Spanish grip is illegal however, because of the different ways you can effectively grip the handle. I think the Spanish and Italian grips are similar, so that might be what you're thinking of.

edew · 02-07-2004, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by telkanuru
I believe it is a simple or compound attack (that is, in one line or multiple) that is carried out while the attacker advances down the strip, instead of simply lunging or such.

Since maraging is a treatment applied to the steel of a blade to make it break cleanly (rather than pointily), I see no reason why any italian grip would be incompatable with a maraged blade, unless the tang had been cut down for pistol. If you fence in the US, tho, I believe the italian grip is illigal for competitive use, as it violates the finger(thumb, I think, but remember not) and guard 2 cm rule. For your last question, I have no idea.

Shouldn't the moderators withhold this post because virtually every statement made in it is false, or inaccurate? I think Bush/Rummy/Cheney had a better track record with regards to Iraq WMDs than the above statement.

Maraging is a forging process that uses a different composition and annealing process compared to other forging processes. The italian grip (the one with the cross bar and rather thin grip) is legal, but virtually non-existant. There are no known maraging blades for the italian grip mainly because the design is significantly different from all other blades, especially near the tang. (It's one thing to make a shorter or more or less flexible blade. It's quite another to flatten out the tang to make it work with the italian grip.)

A proper (and only) hand position on the italian grip cannot put the thumb more than 2cm from the thumb pad. Unless one has a very large italian grip and a very short thumb. And virtually everyone who uses an italian grip must also use a wrist strip, given that the grip provides very little control otherwise.

telkanuru · 02-07-2004, 10:30 AM

My most sincere apologies for the misstatements. It seems that I have been misinformed. I have been told by numerous people on numerous occasions that almos any Italian grip will cause a violation of said 2cm rule. I have also been told that maraging is a part of the forging process, rather than a specific formula. As the person who has informed me of these things is my coach, I would ask your forgiveness for believing.

Grey · 02-07-2004, 10:56 AM

I'm sorry but the marching attack is still not answered! As to the italian grip, does the wrist strap come with it when you purchase it from AllStar or Uhlman? I've asked my club owner to order an italian grip for me with wrist strap if possible... but perhaps it may be possible to fence without using the wrist strap. I found that when I used the french grip (foil, epee) I did not require the finger strap after I've being through proper training/conditioning.

telkanuru · 02-07-2004, 11:10 AM

I thought the definition of the marching attack was the only part of my post that people didn't rip apart. I'm holding my breath, tho.

edew · 02-07-2004, 01:25 PM

There's no formal definition of what a marching attack is. Basically, people call any attack that involves more than one advance as a marching attack. It's a misconception, however, since the marching part is not part of the attack. The perception by the defender, to choose to continue retreating, allows the marcher to continue the march and eventually finishes with an attack. Defenders must be more pro-active and try to cause the attack to occur, rather than wait until they're out of room (in which case, they again cause the attack to occur, but they don't realize that they're instrumental in making the marcher attack...oh well).

jBirch · 02-07-2004, 01:49 PM

Grey,

Further to Edew's comments, in order to understand a marching attack, you have to understand how a step-lunge works with respect to priority.

A step-lunge in all the ROW weapons is an attack started with the step and finished with the lunge. By continually stepping toward your opponent (marching), you give yourself an opportunity to lunge later then your opponent can attack you back because you stepped before they lunged even if you lunged after they did. Confusing? Kinda. Here's the footwork breakdown:

A: Step.
D: Retreat.
A: Step.
D: Retreat.
A: Step.
D: Lunge
A: Lunge

Both attacks hit, A wins because A executed a step lunge while D executed a counter-attack with lunge.

Hope this helps.

edew · 02-07-2004, 04:13 PM

Just a minor nit to pick: both hit, but only one is considered an "attack". The other action is a counter-attack. If you were to say, "both attacks hit", then your conclusion must be "simultaneous attacks, no touch." You do clarify that further along your description.

damianip · 02-07-2004, 04:14 PM

For the last time:

Maraging steels are a category of steels which are characterized by high strength and excellent toughness. Maraging stands for MARtensitic AGING, which is the principle thermodynamic process responsible for the alloys' very favorable mechanical properties.

The development of a maraging steel is dependent on both the composition and heat treatment. (sorry Eric but forging is not an essential part of the mar-aging process).

Strangely enough they are a carbon free steel (a bit of an oxymoron) so, chemically speaking, they are actually just a mostly ferro-nickel alloy. However, the heat treatment process leads to the development of "steel-like" microstructures: martensite and austenite, leading it to be classified as a steel.

For those so inclined, this link gives a fairly good, digestible overview of maraging steel:

http://www.key-to-steel.com/Articles/Art103.htm

Marching attacks, on the other hand, are a different story...

Anyone remember this mess I started on RSF a while back?

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...3DN%26tab%3Dwg

Paolo

edew · 02-07-2004, 04:44 PM

I meant forging as a convenient word for the whole process of producing the steel, from using the right mix of materials to the smelting to the annealing and so forth.

damianip · 02-07-2004, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by edew
I meant forging as a convenient word for the whole process of producing the steel, from using the right mix of materials to the smelting to the annealing and so forth.

No problem, understood.

I would expect more semantic precision from you Eric...

Paolo

jBirch · 02-07-2004, 05:14 PM

damianip,

As would I. *grin* That terminology rip was just brutal.

[bashes head on counter-top] Must [bashes head on counter-top] use [bashes head on counter-top] correct [bashes head on counter-top] terminology [bashes head on counter-top] at [bashes head on counter-top] all [bashes head on counter-top] times.

*grin* Just picking on you Edew. Take that you nasty Nit!

Take it easy.

edew · 02-07-2004, 08:24 PM

Being precise about the forging process is pedantic. Being precise about "attacks" versus "counter-attacks" is essential and relevant to fencing.

damianip · 02-07-2004, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by edew
Being precise about the forging process is pedantic.(SNIP!)

Not if you're a metallurgist...

Quote:

Originally posted by edew
Being precise about "attacks" versus "counter-attacks" is essential and relevant to fencing.

Not if you're an epeeist...

Paolo

edew · 02-08-2004, 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by damianip
Not if you're a metallurgist...

Not if you're an epeeist...

Paolo

Neither of which applies to this thread and topic.

Rolls · 02-08-2004, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by edew
Shouldn't the moderators withhold this post because virtually every statement made in it is false, or inaccurate? I think Bush/Rummy/Cheney had a better track record with regards to Iraq WMDs than the above statement.

I would have to argue with this point. First, the statements made are commonly held misconceptions. We all hear them all the time. So, by stating what telkanuru believed to be true, he incited pretty in-depth answers from others more knowledgable and left no question to the validity of these misconceptions. I would not been surprised had these questions gone unaswered(or at least provided correct answers without addressing the invalid statements that are commonly passes around), if not for the misstatements.

Rolls.