Supporting Elite Fencers

[Mo]

It is often written in here by many assorted people how the USFA only supports it's "elite" fencers. In the Charlotte thread someone said this again. This year the Division 1 National Championships will be in Atlanta with the Youth NAC and not even during Summer Nationals.
I would like to hear how the USFA supports Elite fencers? Who gets the sport cars, the free time shares and the first class airplane tickets?
All the references are innuendo and not any of them are backed up by anyone actually saying how the elite fencers are treated so much better than any fencer going to any event.
I do know that if a youth fencer wins Y14 they get 180 bucks or a Cadet Fencer wins the JOs they get 265 bucks. Is that what this is all about?
Please enlighten me.

[Inquartata]

Weeeell...as an example...just let me apply for a license to go fence in a World Cup, even on my own dime. What kind of answer do you suppose I would get? As opposed to the answer that one of the elite fencers would get?

[kalivor]

Originally posted by Inquartata
Weeeell...as an example...just let me apply for a license to go fence in a World Cup, even on my own dime. What kind of answer do you suppose I would get? As opposed to the answer that one of the elite fencers would get?

I was under the impression that the FIE set limits on the number of fencers from a given country who are permitted to fence in a World Cup. If there are a limited number of spots, why would they give one to you?

[Inquartata]

I don't believe that's correct. I think that the only "limit" comes from the requirement that for every X number of fencers X number of referees must also be sent. So, the USFA is willing to send that referee for elite fencers, but not for the rest of us. That's de facto financial support of elite fencers which we cannot get.

Whether it SHOULD be so is another question, of course. But there's no question that the elites have certain perks not available to all...and this is just one.

[a517dogg]

I applied for an FIE license earlier this season and got one. I was also going to fence in a world cup (not designated) and didn't have to tell any US person, and I don't even have any national points.

But as for anybody being able to go to say Barcelona World Cup, frankly it is good that that is not allowed for the quality of the competition. And yes the FIE does set limits to the number of fencers a country can send to a world cup. I believe it's 4 for cups outside that country's zone... you could check on the FIE site though.

[Fechter1]

Actually, I believe that the limit of fencers of each country permitted to fence at an FIE world cup is 8 + the country quota (I think that's the number of fencers from that country currently in the top 32 on the world list). However, the rules are slightly different for events on the same continent, which explains why the Montreal (now Vancouver) world cup is open to pretty much anyone from the USFA. I'll admit that I don't know the exact rules on participation. I've also heard that for Grand Prix designated events, the number of fencers for each country is limited to 10 no matter what the country quota says.

I'll have to reread the rules on the FIE site.

[Inquartata]

You see? I don't even know this...the chances that I, a nonelite fencer, would ever get the chance to go to one is so perishingly remote it's not even worth delving into...

[neevel]

The FIE entry criteria are in section o.86 of the rules:

o.86 (a)

In Europe, for each weapon, each federation may enter 8 fencers plus a number equal to the number of its members ranked in the top 32 of the previous World Cup. The Organizing country may enter 24 fencers plus a number equal to that of its members ranked in the top 32 of the previous World Cup.

Outside Europe:
— For countries of the same continent as the organizers, the organizers are free to set the number of entries.
— For other countries, the rules for competitions in Europe apply.


When *****ing about whatever perks elite fencers get from the USFA, keep in mind that these are people who are putting their educational and/or professional lives on hold, and commonly living on a modest (remember your first year of grad school?)budget, in order to devote the time they need to train and compete at the necessary level. "Non-elite" fencers looking out from a comfortable middle-class or higher lifestyle might want to consider that before complaining too loudly.

Besides, the criteria for being considered for entering a World Cup are pretty clear: get to the top 16 of the rolling points list. Eligibility requirements and dollar amounts for athlete funding are there for everybody to read in the Athlete's Handbook at the USFA website. Now, if you're not willing to invest the time, effort, money and opportunity cost to get there... (which will be far more than you'll ever see back in funding once you get to that level).

-Dave

[Mo]

Originally posted by Inquartata
You see? I don't even know this...the chances that I, a nonelite fencer, would ever get the chance to go to one is so perishingly remote it's not even worth delving into...

All this information is in the rule book. You have to be in the top 16 for Junior World cups or apply for it and go if all of the top 16 do not want to go.
You Inquarta because of your advanced years (meaning over 20) would have to compete in Division 1. Would you really want to go fence in an event where the top US fencers get their butts handed to them on a regular basis??
I don't think having qualifying criteria is that bad of an idea.

So that is one thing, being in the top 16 can get you into world cups, what other horribly unfair advantages do the "elite" fences get from the USFA??

[MyraTrue]

I find myself having to agree with Neevel. Its not as if these fencers aren't deserving of a few perks. The cost of travel, of equipment, fees, so on... that HAS to get insanely expensive. To be an "elite fencer" only takes skill (you know what I mean), not the prerequisit of a great deal of money available. Giving it everything you've got may make it on the strip, but not in the checkbook.

There are also, I believe, bans on sponsorship and fencing once one reaches university etc. It might be a GOOD thing for the USFA to help cover some of its "best representative" members.

I mean, if (and thats a near-impossible "if" for me) I somehow managed to make it into the top 16 etc, there's NO WAY I could afford most of what it would take to stay there. If the USFA wants good fencers, and has them, it seems a good idea to help them out a bit.

[Boo Boo]

The elite USFA fencers are very lucky if they do get some funding towards travel/expenses to go to World Cups...

In the UK, VERY few of the elite fencers get any funding (seniors, juniors and cadets) - most of us are fully self-funded. We even have to split the cost of taking a referee to World Cups! This also explains why we don't tend to take coaches to World Cups - since we would have to fund them too (and the FIE has introduced a ruling that a person cannot coach - i.e. warm-up lessons etc. - and referee at the same World Cup: so we can't take a referee who is also a coach...)

a517dogg, even if you want to enter a non-nominated/designated World Cup, you still have to be entered by your federation (although I realise that US/Canadian World Cups are different - you are VERY lucky there). An invitation is sent/faxed to each federation asking for the names of fencers attending that World Cup.

However, I have seen some unranked US fencers turn up to World Cups (New York/Havana), so - if you really want to compete in a World Cup - you might still be able to. You need to investigate that with the USFA...

Boo

[mifencer]

I also agree that there should be some restraint in sending ANYBODY to a WC. If a lot of 'non-elite' fencers show up at a wc, it gives that country a bad reputation, making it harder for the 'elite' fencers. It's the truth regardless how fair it should be.

[Craig]

Originally posted by Inquartata
I don't believe that's correct. I think that the only "limit" comes from the requirement that for every X number of fencers X number of referees must also be sent. So, the USFA is willing to send that referee for elite fencers, but not for the rest of us. That's de facto financial support of elite fencers which we cannot get.

Whether it SHOULD be so is another question, of course. But there's no question that the elites have certain perks not available to all...and this is just one.

And, in the other countries where the World Cups are held the fencers in that country have to compete for slots to be allowed to fence in the WC. Given the number of US fencers at the WCs held in the USA, that's not the case.

Craig

[Craig]

I'll need to find the data to make sure, but I think I saw that the entire training budget for the Men's Epee Team (those "elites") for 2004 was a whopping $20K. That amount, in an Olympic qualifying year, is amazingly small.

These fencers are doing it all mainly on their own dime. We shouldn't be B&M'ing about how the USFA only supports elites.

Craig

[Mo]

Originally posted by Boo Boo
The elite USFA fencers are very lucky if they do get some funding towards travel/expenses to go to World Cups...

However, I have seen some unranked US fencers turn up to World Cups (New York/Havana), so - if you really want to compete in a World Cup - you might still be able to. You need to investigate that with the USFA...
Boo

Actually, I believe any fencer can fence in a World Cup if the country is hosting it. If it is a non designated world cup I think that is possible too.
In Poland there were some kids from Poland who were fencing in the event without even the proper clothing and equipment. It was a Cadet B designation. I assume this was because of the designation.
Last year in the NYC World Cup, there were lots of women saber fencers who didn't have points in Senior but were allowed to fence anyway based on the age criteria and some kind of point standings.

[veeco]

Not any fencer can fence in a world cup if the country is hosting it.

That maybe the case for Senior and Junior world cups in the Americas, but it's not the case in Europe. In Europe, the host country gets 24 spots, plus whatever quota they have from the number of fencers are ranked in the top 32 of the FIE standings.

Cadet events are not sanctionned by the FIE, so everyone can compete in these. The only cadet event sanctionned by the FIE is the world cadet championships, and for these there is a restriction on the number of fencers that can fence.

I for one cannot fence in a senior men's epee world cup in France, because only 24 fencers + quota can compete, and I am not one of those lucky ones.

[Boo Boo]

In the UK, who can compete in "home" World Cups depends on the actual competition:
- For Ipswich Senior WE World Cup, The London Senior ME World Cup and the Eden Cup MF Junior World Cup, UK fencers are all selected straight off of rankings - i.e. the top 28 of the relevant rankings who want to attend.
- The Corble Cup MS World Cup, however, selects the top 8 fencers from the national rankings, then selects the other 20 from a qualifying competition the day before...

It is not impossible that a "local" fencer (or fencer who has gone to spectate, but has taken their kit along) might end up fencing to "make up the numbers" (to get complete poules of 7), but that is generally avoided if possible. I believe Cadet B competitions are quite different - as Veeco says, they are not sanctioned by the FIE...

In the UK, supposedly to be entered for a senior foreign World Cup competition you should be at least ranked in the current in the top 20 (some say 15) of the senior rankings. I have seen exceptions to that (for instance, Richard Cohen - of "By the Sword" book fame - was allowed to fence in the New York MS A-grade last year: but he has a history...). This includes "non-designated" (we call then non-nominated - since they are not nominated for British Ranking points) World Cups. At the end of the day, since all entries for foreign World Cups have to go through the British Fencing Association, they have the final say for us...

In contrast to Europe, the US has a pretty liberal attitude to who can enter home World Cups...

Boo

[vegan]

OK . . .
I'm not sure about this years handbook, but basically if you are trying to go to a zonal (us, canada) WC as a senior, you need points - most of the people going either have them or "could" . . . there are some politics involved here, if oyu are coached buy someone big they in theory could tell the usfa to allow you to go if the top 16 are already not going.
If you want to go to a non zonal WC and don't have points- forget it, or join the virgin islands or someplace with no functioning fencing federation (belive me, it happens!). Furthermore, if people above on the points list wish to go- too bad, they have priority.
As for funding the Elite Fencers, they don't get very much- but some of them have started to set up foundations to fund themselves- which seems to work ok, but they must train full time, and have no "on the radar" income. Its not cheap or easy on them, belive me.
However, they do favor the younger poeple to go- because they will have them to fund again in 4 years . . . at least I think thats the theory!
Good luck sorting it out!
Cheers,
B.

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by neevel

When *****ing about whatever perks elite fencers get from the USFA, keep in mind that these are people who are putting their educational and/or professional lives on hold, and commonly living on a modest (remember your first year of grad school?)budget, in order to devote the time they need to train and compete at the necessary level.

I have to call BS on this one. After all, these people are not being forced to make these "sacrifices", they have CHOSEN to do so, of their own free wills. It's like any other costly choice in life. here is no reason to expect "help" as your due. If you can't afford it, you don't do it, or you find ways to do it. Don't expect me to do it for you and thank you for the indulgence.

If I chose to devote a largish amount of time and effort to travelling to exotic beaches around the world, would I "deserve" assistance from others merely because I was foregoing work or school opportunities? And should others, who like to spend the occasional weekend at the beach, be constrained to shell out that I might realize my "dream"?

Now, if you're not willing to invest the time, effort, money and opportunity cost to get there...

Which is what I just said. If you aren't willing to do it on your own, don't. Just as I, if I can't afford to go to an NAC, don't. No one offers to pay part of my expenses to go fence, nor should they. I think that ought to be the policy for ALL fencers.

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by Mo
You Inquarta because of your advanced years

Ouch!!!!

Would you really want to go fence in an event where the top US fencers get their butts handed to them on a regular basis??

One improves only by being challenged and by fencing people better than you. I'd certainly like the opportunity.

what other horribly unfair advantages do the "elite" fences get from the USFA??

Hmmm. "Athlete Awards"? Access to the top national coaches, trainers and other support personnel?

There's not a lot about the perks on the USFA website, for obvious reasons. One has to read the newsletters and the minutes of USFA meetings and so on to find out about some of these things. I used to be more "up" on the situation than I am now. A full list would require more digging than I care to do, I suspect...