Supporting Elite Fencers

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by mifencer
I also agree that there should be some restraint in sending ANYBODY to a WC. If a lot of 'non-elite' fencers show up at a wc, it gives that country a bad reputation, making it harder for the 'elite' fencers. It's the truth regardless how fair it should be.

And of course, everything is about how things are for the poor elite fencers. That's the whole problem in a nutshell. The focus is all on how we can make things better for 1% of us, while the other 99% should just shut up and pay for it...

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by Craig
I'll need to find the data to make sure, but I think I saw that the entire training budget for the Men's Epee Team (those "elites") for 2004 was a whopping $20K. That amount, in an Olympic qualifying year, is amazingly small.

It's about $20,000 more than anyone I know gets, Craig.

Numbers are relative. What strikes you as nominal may not be so to everyone. And the figures count only monetary outlays; I suspect there's a lot of in-kind benefits, use of facilities, consultations with trainers, sports psychologists, coaches and so on which if valued would bring the figures up substantially.

[FencerMom]

To get a little perspective, it will cost us $20.000 this year to get my kid her fencing lessons, floor fees, go to the national events, and to 3 world cup events. The only money we saw was when she medaled in JOs, and it was only in the $100 range. It did help a little, but it is a pittance compared to the real cost. I do not fault the elite fencers, as they have enormous costs. Most are going toward the goal of the Olympics. The full cost, if one fences for 7 years to get there, is around $140,000. Remember also,that in France, the fencers are totally supported by their fencing federation.

[a517dogg]

Hmmm. "Athlete Awards"? Access to the top national coaches, trainers and other support personnel?

If elite fencers do not receive access to elite coaches, what is the point of having elite coaches? The purpose of elite coaches is to train elite fencers.

There's not a lot about the perks on the USFA website, for obvious reasons.

Yes, it is all clearly a conspiracy designed to prop up an illegitimate USFA regime out of touch with its modern electoral base! Onward with the revolution! BREAD, PEACE AND LAND!

One has to read the newsletters and the minutes of USFA meetings and so on to find out about some of these things. I used to be more "up" on the situation than I am now. A full list would require more digging than I care to do, I suspect...

"I am too lazy to find a real argument, so I will throw my assertions and assumptions at you."

Inquarta, are you saying that fencers who receive Athlete Awards do not deserve them? Are you saying that fencers who train to become the best deserve no recognition? If so, what is the point of competitive fencing?

This is like saying "Students who do well in school should not receive scholarships or reductions in tuition, because this is too beneficial to the 'elite' student and unfair to the rest of the students." It is, in my view, idiotic.

[sallearmourer]

I remenber the time when the elite fencers didn't get anything from the USFA. I have hear all the samething about the elite fencers for the past 30 years. Nothering new at all.


Tim

[neevel]

Originally posted by Inquartata
Numbers are relative. What strikes you as nominal may not be so to everyone. And the figures count only monetary outlays; I suspect there's a lot of in-kind benefits, use of facilities, consultations with trainers, sports psychologists, coaches and so on which if valued would bring the figures up substantially.

By which logic, the USOC should be scrapped in it's entirety, since all elite athletes in all Olympic sports receive such support.

I suppose you think academic scholarships at universities are BS, too.

-Dave

[whtouche]

Originally posted by a517dogg

This is like saying "Students who do well in school should not receive scholarships or reductions in tuition, because this is too beneficial to the 'elite' student and unfair to the rest of the students." It is, in my view, idiotic.

That's about as succinct an arguement that will be found on this thread.
I'm pretty sure I agree completely. There are certain things in fencing, as all things, that should be earned. You can go to a div 1 NAC and fence against the best in the country, try walking on and trying to play in the NBA.

Elite talent development programs, such as they exist, are a positive thing I think. I would love nothing more than for U.S. fencers to bring home medals from world champs, olympic games, etc. and whatever will help get them there I support.

Now if this were being done at the 'expense' of the 'little guy' then I can see source for ire, but what is helping the elite fencers doing to hurt the rest of us?
I'm personally not feeling the pinch.

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by a517dogg
[b] If elite fencers do not receive access to elite coaches, what is the point of having elite coaches? The purpose of elite coaches is to train elite fencers.

Yes. Nevertheless, it is ( at least partly ) the membership dues and entry fees from the non-elite fencers which makes it possible for them to train a few fencers. This is a "benefit" to which the vast majority of fencers are not privy---which was what Mo was asking us to cite.

Yes, it is all clearly a conspiracy designed to prop up an illegitimate USFA regime out of touch with its modern electoral base! Onward with the revolution! BREAD, PEACE AND LAND!

Sarcasm duly noted, but it doesn't really address the question, does it? Mere ridicule is a non sequitur.

The USFA website scarcely contains any mention at all of the elite programs, aside from rankings and press releases, usually dealing with results. Yet we know there are such programs. They are not mentioned because, presumably, the elite fencers and their coaches and trainers get whatever info they need directly from the USFA, or else they have a dedicated newsletter or something. This probably doesn't have a nefarious basis, merely one of convenience: the vast majority of us don't need to hear about things that don't affect us and probably don't care to know...and when and if we DO need to know, we'll be notified one way or another.

The minutes of meetings OTOH sometimes reveal things such as votes of funds to diverse purposes, including elite support measures. They also tend to show the underlying beliefs of the leadership about "what's important". Clearly, elites loom large in that respect.

Inquarta, are you saying that fencers who receive Athlete Awards do not deserve them? Are you saying that fencers who train to become the best deserve no recognition? If so, what is the point of competitive fencing?

"Deserve"?

You mean, that they are entitled to the use of funds which I and other fencers pay out simply because they have been more successful at an activity which we both do? Are you saying that these monies are tantamount to a trophy?

Recognition is one thing. Payment is another. Especially when it's me doing the paying ( at least partially ).

This is like saying "Students who do well in school should not receive scholarships or reductions in tuition, because this is too beneficial to the 'elite' student and unfair to the rest of the students." It is, in my view, idiotic.

If the scholarships are being paid for by other students at the same school, that's exactly what it's like.

If you have so far swallowed the premise of our "entitlement" culture, that is your business. Do not expect everyone to agree with you, though...

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by neevel
By which logic, the USOC should be scrapped in it's entirety, since all elite athletes in all Olympic sports receive such support.

I suppose you think academic scholarships at universities are BS, too.

-Dave

One question: from whence come these funds?

I do not pay dues to the USOC. Insofar as their sources of revenue are not my pocket, they may do with them as they will.

( And the bulk of scholarships are paid from foundations, trusts and the like which are independently funded. They are not by and large funded from the tuition payments of other students. )

Flawed analogies both, verging on straw men, IMO.

[Tsu-La]

Originally posted by Inquartata
Hmmm. "Athlete Awards"? Access to the top national coaches, trainers and other support personnel?

There's not a lot about the perks on the USFA website, for obvious reasons.

First of all, "athlete awards" are minimal, few, and far between. The only access one has to top coaches -if you're talking about national coaches- is a national training camp if you're willing to pay to fly there and pay for the camp etc, or if they're your coach in the first place. There are no trainers unfortunately, and other than those in the USFA offices your support system must be one's fellow fencers, and many would like a chance to get at your throat anyway for being a threat to their points.

That sounded a little more cynical than I'm sure it actually is, but from having clubmates who were on national teams, I know that the only promos they really get are a couple free shirts and warmups before the world championships. These are probably given to them by the USOC or something. It's very hard for them to stay on top with the amount of money they're having to spend to get there. Many fencers work very hard for those points, and don't get a lot in return besides their own personal successes and maybe some attention from other fencers. This is not a conspiracy, as you would make it out to be. I agree with a517dogg.

Phew. Off my soapbox now.

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by whtouche
There are certain things in fencing, as all things, that should be earned. You can go to a div 1 NAC and fence against the best in the country, try walking on and trying to play in the NBA.

(a) The NBA is a private for-profit business, and salaries and perks are paid for by revenue streams from fans and advertising, etc, not by "taxes" on every basketball player in the country who competes at any level.

(b) You can only "go to a Div 1 NAC" and compete if you are "worthy", ie have a C or above ( and soon a B or above ). Not quite as egalitarian as you paint it.

(c) As far as things being "earned", do you admit of any limitations? If trophies and medals are legitimate earnings of success, and so too are small financial supports and logistical assisstances, what else qualifies in your view? Or more to the point, what would be "over the line"? How about salaries for elite fencers, so they could dedicate all their time to fencing? And if so, how large a salary? Subsistence? Or enough to guarantee a comfortable existence and plenty of travel funding? Would you be willing to foot such payments?

I have to pay my own way, 100%, to every tournament I CHOOSE to attend. If I win, guess what? I still have to pay my way to the next one, 100%. And so on, and on. What entitles the elite fencer making an identical CHOICE to go at least partially at my expense, and that of every other USFA member?

I would love nothing more than for U.S. fencers to bring home medals from world champs, olympic games, etc. and whatever will help get them there I support.

Whatever? How about a doubling of membership dues and event fees to pay for this? A tripling? Quadrupling? Where is YOUR limit? I suspect that you do have one, despite your statement...

Now if this were being done at the 'expense' of the 'little guy' then I can see source for ire, but what is helping the elite fencers doing to hurt the rest of us?
I'm personally not feeling the pinch.

Ah, so it's just a matter of degree, then? Like a frog being boiled, you will stay in the pot as long as it doesn't heat up too fast?

But seriously, what I tend to resent is the lack of choice. It's like taxation...and I don't like that much, either. In effect we're told that if we want to fence ve VILL pay und ve vill haff NO say in how the funds are used. It's patronizing, and it's exploitative.

In my view the USFAs revenues should be devoted equally to serving the interests of ALL fencers. There should be no primus inter pares treatment for the few.

[The0ne]

quite a lively debate here. . .

Elite athletes deserve money, there is no doubt about this in my mind. To compare it to your situation Inq, do you fence 5 days a week? Pay for lessons with top coaches, which the going rate is about a dollar a minute? Do you have to go to every single Div. 1 NAC to keep your spot in the points list? Judging from your posts so far I don't think you do, and that cost adds up! Not to mention World Cups, WOrld CHampionships etc. If I was at that level I would want all the financial aid that I could get, and I don't fault the top level fencers from getting their money, even if I am paying for it.

[Tireur]

And of course, everything is about how things are for the poor elite fencers. That's the whole problem in a nutshell. The focus is all on how we can make things better for 1% of us, while the other 99% should just shut up and pay for it...

Steve Mormando used to wear a shirt that said (on the front) Traning Camp Was Great! and on the back But Who's Going To Pay My Rent?

This really ticked me off. My thougt was, well, you are. Just like the rest of us

[veeco]

Originally posted by FencerMom
Remember also,that in France, the fencers are totally supported by their fencing federation.

In some other European and Asian countries, this may be the case, but not in France. Most French fencers are either students or have some sort of job that was given to them by the government. But no money for living expenses/training comes from the fencing federation. They have to find other ways to earn it.

Sure they have an easier time than most Elite US fencers I know. But they don't quite have it as easy as one would think.

[Craig]

Inq. before you can be going off on all of the "undue attention" that the "elites" are getting, you need to cite some numbers.

Your arguments have no weight until you provide a budget, show the numbers, and show how - in your opinion - that represents the USFA working to the detriment of the population of fencers. Show me services that you are not receiving, etc.

And don't give me stuff like "Well, a D can't compete at a Div I NAC." That smacks of an entitlement culture to. (I'm entitled to go and fence at a Div I even though I can't hold a candle to an 'A' fencer.)

Until you do that, don't continue this arguement. It's getting pointless and unproductive.

Cheers,
Craig

[veeco]

I think that a lot of the assumptions being made here might have already been discussed before actually.

I remember a thread sometime ago where some of the arguments presented here were being raised, and IIRC, oiuyt had posted some numbers saying that the funding for "Elite" fencers was coming directly from the USOC, not from the fees that you and I (well actually, only you right now, I am not a member of the USFA anymore) pays to the USFA.

So, if that's the case, Inq, would you stop complaining and get back to trying and become a better fencer?

[mtarascio]

I agree with Craig.

What are some of the things the USFA provide the non-elite fencer?

1. Summer Nationals
2. Youth Regional Circuit
3. Division 2 & 3 NAC's
4. Coaches College

Whatever help (not enough) the elite athlete gets does not come from membership dues or entry fees. The USOC gives the USFA funds (amount based on International results) which covers this.

I recall years ago when the USFA (AFLA) only had one National event during the year and that was the National Championships. We have come a long way to provide the non-elite fencer many more opportunities.

As a former member of the United States World Championship Team and now a coach and C classified fencer I not only would not consider fencing in a Division 1 NAC, Division 1 National Championships or a WC but would not subject the top fencers to have to fence with me in one of these events. It would serve no useful purpose for me and a complete waste of time for the elite fencer. In my opinion one should earn the right to compete at this level.

In closing, I feel we are very fortunate to have elite athletes who are doing very well Internationally. I wish we could do more for them.

[hscoach]

To become an "elite fencers" coast thousands and thousands of dollars. I think they should be paid more if they are the top 4 in their event. Money is spent on travel, coaches, FIE equipment, loss of work, etc. Some elite fencers (not the very, very top) really get nothing. Look to see what the cost of a flight to Bulgaria costs and some of the other locations. How many of these overseas flights must they make in an Olympic year. A great deal of the budget for fencers goes to the Cadre. If the US does well in the Olympics it can only help our sport in everyway.
How about making the PRO Olympians (the ones who get paid millions of dollars for their sport) donate a substantial tax deductable amount to the USOC for the other sports??
I would love to see a list of how much some of these pro athletes have actually donated to the USOC and who has not donated a dime.

[Philistine]

The USFA spends a substantial amount of money, effort and support on elite fencers.

It also spends a substantial amount of money, effort and support on everybody else.

Whether the breakdown is "equitable" seems to be the bone of contention.

Much of the grumbling, I suspect, is because of the lack of transparency of the USFA finances. Granting members easy access to financial statements showing what's coming in, and what's going out, and for what would likely (IMHO) alleviate much of the debate. In any event, it would make the debate better informed.

FWIW, I see little reason why the USFA shouldn't make the finances more open--post the statements on their site, for example. It is a non-profit corporation after all, and USFA members--regardless of their skill --are all members of that corporation.

--Philistine

[MyraTrue]

Well, Inquartata, who exactly is spouting BS now?

I have to call BS on this one. After all, these people are not being forced to make these "sacrifices", they have CHOSEN to do so, of their own free wills. It's like any other costly choice in life. here is no reason to expect "help" as your due. If you can't afford it, you don't do it, or you find ways to do it. Don't expect me to do it for you and thank you for the indulgence.

If I chose to devote a largish amount of time and effort to travelling to exotic beaches around the world, would I "deserve" assistance from others merely because I was foregoing work or school opportunities? And should others, who like to spend the occasional weekend at the beach, be constrained to shell out that I might realize my "dream"?

EVERYTHING we do is a choice. Some of us manage to do more than others, and some choices are ones others encourage. So let me clarify: lets say there's a full time student at university, paying their own way through college, paying for their equipment, their coaching, their transport, etc. This student has to work fencing in between exams and lectures, a job or three, and whatever time is left over or created around everything else they do, goes to fencing.

So, Inquartata, are you saying, "sorry, but since your parents don't have the money, I don't CARE how hard you've worked or what you've given up, no money for you." This is like saying, "So you think you can develop the cure to cancer, but this is a choice, this is something YOU want to do. But we're not going to even CONSIDER helping you out, cause if you want to do it, do it with your OWN money." Yet you don't seem to batt an eye at the idea of OTHER sports funding their athletes. Why should fencing be any different? We sit here and gripe "fencing is a vanishing sport" and bandy ideas of how to make it "more media friendly," and so on, but how about the idea that if every bloody fencer ever exhibited to the public fenced as badly as me... we'd NEVER keep the sport. In that sense, we NEED good fencers.

If you have the skill and the devotion, I see NOTHING at fault (though it may be a wistful thought) in the idea of financial assistance to someone who needs it. Why is this any different than scholarships given to good students without financial means to attend university? Should you tell them, "Since you're from a poor family, you don't DESERVE to attend college."????

And there's a helluva lot of difference between you lounging on a beach and someone's fencing career. And you KNOW that. Though if you can find a beachgoers association of America, be my guest to ask for vacation money. But don't go about self-righteously proclaim that its your money and that no one "deserves" anything. And no one went on asking you, by name, to support "elite" fencers. They're not lining up to beg a dollar bill from your wallet, and I do not think they would choose to either.

I'll never be one of those fencers, but it doesn't mean the USFA should not support those with the ability.

*sits on soap box and waits for the retort*