The Boat to Athens or 'Fence like an Egyptian'

[Epeecurean]

The FIE team qualification path has the top four teams worldwide in the FIE standings qualifying plus the top team in each of the four 'zones' -- Europe, Americas, Asia and Africa, for a total of 8 teams.

I understand this is so the FIE can say to the IOC that fencing is well-represented across the continents (as symbolised by the 5 Olympic rings), but it does make for some curious outcomes.

As it stands...

ME
* Korea and the US bypass Hungary, Estonia, Sweden, Poland, Austria and Switzerland to qualify (6 teams)
* Egypt bypasses all those plus Netherlands, Spain, China, Canada and Kazakhstan (11)

MF
* USA bypasses Poland and Russia (2)
* Korea bypasses those plus Spain (3)
* Egypt bypasses those plus Japan (4)

MS
* USA bypasses Germany and Romania (2)
* Egypt bypasses those plus Spain, Poland, Korea, Greece and Japan (7)

WE
* Canada and Korea bypass France, Italy, Ukraine, Poland and Switzerland (5)
* South Africa bypasses those plus Spain, USA, Greece, Austria, Cuba, Romania, Sweden, Japan, Chile, Latvia and Belarus (16)

WF
* Japan and USA bypass France and Germany (2)
* Egypt bypasses those plus China, Puerto Rico, Korea, Moldova, Greece and Cuba (8)

WS
* China bypasses Azerbaidjan (1)
* Canada bypasses Azer plus China, Romania, Germany, Great Britain, Iceland, Japan, Korea and Poland (9)
* Africa has no country fencing WS

Though the USA, Canada, Japan, China, and Korea all benefit from this policy of geographic diversity, EGYPT and S.AFRICA stand out as the being the weakest teams to qualify:

EGYPT qualifies ME MF MS WF
S.AFRICA qualifies WE

The Egyptians don't face a long arduous road to Athens but a pleasant boat ride across the Mediterranean.

The Europeans of course are the big losers. But also I think that the fencing events at the Olympics are diminished by not having the best fencers in the world represented. When it comes down to it, the Olympics will be far weaker than the World Championships

Cheers,
Epeecurean

[DHCJr]

One problem in your analysis is of course the Lady Sabre and Foil Team. There will be no limit on who can go, because they are not going to the Olympics. The limits are proscribe by the IOC, not the FIE. Now it is the FIE that works within those limits, but I would prefer the 1984 version of the Olympics, except of course for the Boycott.

Now because the IOC puts limits, the various sports have to follow the IOC guidelines. If the FIE were to put forth a plan of just inviting the best teams, the IOC would say, you do it our way or you go bye-bye. Look at what happened when they brought in the Lady's Sabre and to keep within the Olympic limits, they were going to have combined teams. The IOC said NO, you bring in the individual you take out a team.

I am not saying the FIE's limit as you describe is right. I am just saying they have very little choice. Next year at the World Championship we will again have the best compete without the IOC's interference.

[Epeecurean]

Oh yeah -- forgot about the situation WS and WF. But now that you brought it up, I think you'll find that the FIE was open to the idea of combined teams but ask for it to be demonstrated as a concept before the Olympics arguing that Athens was not to be used as a testing ground for innovations. The FIE was going to pursue this and organise combined teams for the Lisbon World Champs such that it could be implemented for the Olympics, but I believe in the end there were technical hitches that couldn't be sorted out. The are looking at doing it for the 2008 games in Beijing though.

So amend the conclusion to EGYPT ME MF MS, RSA WE. I agree the FIE has little choice, I was just making the point that continental representation has undermined the primary Olympic idea of the games as a contest of the best athletes in the world.

Perhaps the FIE should consider holding World Championships in Olympic years as do many other sports. It could be considered one of the qualifying events.

[ndfencer]

As an American, it is nice to have a chance to see fellow countrymen in the olympics. However, i do understand and appreciate the point you bring up. However, when it comes down to it, the very top-level fencers (the ones competing for medals) are still going to be there. Sure we are losing some depth from the european side, but I think that I really won't change much, when it comes to meadals. And what the hell is the IOC's problem with their freaking medal restrictions. They've actually managed to crush peoples hopes of ever getting to compete on the largest of stages. This might actually be hurting european fencers more that qualification regulations.

[sabreur]

The result of this will be some terrible mismatches in the first round of team eliminations...

MR

[pkt]

We - Britian, Canada and the US - have a similar system for our elections.

First past the post wins in each riding/consitituency/whatever it's called. But when you add up all the votes, there may be distortions in the total popular votes:
The party that wins the most seats - and form the government - may not have the highest popular votes.
It's called efficiency of vote distribution. If a party has a high concentration of supporters in a few constituencies, they'll win those seats with landslides...but may not let them form gov't.

PK

[Cyranox11]

Hi

It may interest you to do an even more thorough analysis:
The ONLY African team to contest more than one FIE Ladies' Epee Team Competition was South Africa. Likewise, only Egypt contested MF, MS and ME...

So these teams all qualified by default, not too different to teams that qualify by CHOOSING which events to contest (ie those where they can reasonably expect a good result: for example Russia, Italy, France, Germany etc).

However South Africa WILL NOT be sending a WE team to Athens even if they do qualify at the end of the qualifying period.
It is doubtful whether we will send any fencers to the Olympics at all...

We have qualified fencers to the 1996 and 2000 Olympics, but our Natonal Olympic Committee has refused to send South African fencers to any Olympiad since 1992 (our first since coming out of isolation).
In 1996, Daniel Steenkamp was black carded for failing to appear on the piste... In 2000, Dario Torrente had his name printed in the programme, but was kicking his heels in Johannesburg...

So African fencers are so bad that they can only qualify through the continental criteria: BS!!! Oh and I seem to remember the Egyptian ME team beating the USA at last years WCs... as well as an Egyptian in ME Individual coming in the top 16 (or top 32, I am not sure) at the same competition: the same guy WON the Tunisian World Cup comp (with assorted French, Italian and German fencers present).

So if African fencers are capable of qualifying and even beating world class fencers, why are their world rankings so low?

Heres the answer:

How many world ups are held in Africa each year? Maximum of 4: 1xWE, 1xME, 1xMF and MAYBE 1xJnr MF. The foil events are usually cancelled, leaving Africa with a whole 2 World Cups, neither of which include a team competition.
Where are these competitions held? Foil in Egypt and Epee in Tunisia. Can you fly from South Africa to Tunisia? No you have to fly via europe. Can you fly from Senegal to Tunisia? No you have to fly via Europe. Can you fly to Tunisia from Nigeria? No you have to fly via Europe. Therefore, is there any advantage to the rest of Africa in having these African World Cup competions? No, theymay as well be in Europe!

So for an African fencing team to compete in a team world cup they have to go to Europe, Australia or the Americas... For African fencers (other than those from the hosts of the World Cup Comps) to compete in a World Cup they have to at the VERY least go via Europe.

Then there is the issue of funding: few African fencing federations are adequately funded this means that almost all African fencers train, travel and compete at their own expense. This means that most fencers will fence MAYBE 1 or 2 world cups a year and MAYBE World Champs. In Olympic qualifying years they will fence at the absolute most, 6 or 7 World Cups and World Champs.

BUT if you have fenced maybe 2 competitions and got a result in only one of them, then you start the season ranked near the bottom. THEN you have to fence a nasty pool then you may get through 2 rounds of DE just to score some ranking points. Meanwhile the top 16 have a bye into teh top 64 and the top 16 after pools also have a bye into top 64: no wonder the African fencers' rankings are poor...

And a final note: the South African WE fencer who will probably qualify this year recently lost 2 of her 5 pool bouts by 1 point and won the rest and then lost 13-15 to Maria Mazina (you may remeber her from the Gold Medal winning Russian Epee team at Sydney)...
So if she is allowed to go, EXPECT an 'upset' she CAN beat the best and I am sure the Egyptians can too!

[veeco]

Very good points Cyrano.

I have actually fenced against a South African junior women's epee fencer a couple of years ago, and she was pretty good.

It's a shame most fencers from Africa don't have more opportunities to compete. The FIE is saying they want to make fencing a global competition, yet some of the measures they take seem to be only for "good figure".

In the end, it is a vicious circle for these countries. They need more funding to go to tournaments, but the funding doesn't come without results. To get results, you need to go to tournaments...

[Cyranox11]

Hey Veeco,
Who did you fence and where?
I probably know her.
Thanks for the support...
If we get to send our WE fencer as an individual I ssupect we may surprise some people...

[veeco]

Cyrano, check your PMs.

In the same vein, I saw the Greek men's foil team in Paris, at the recent world cup there. The poor guys came in, fenced 2 bouts, and lost them both, against some pretty strong teams. It's not that their fencing was inherently bad, but within Europe, the competition is so strong, that they weren't quite at the same level as the others. Having to fence Danemark and the Netherlands, they pretty much didn't stand a chance. With that being said, they gave the Dutch a run for their money, and it wasn't an easy win for the Dutch.

I would say that if the Greek team was part of another zone, they might very well be able to qualify for the olympics, without even using the wildcard they get this year. Instead, they have to scramble in the early rounds, fence some strong opponents, and get eliminated.

[Cyranox11]

Yes, the Greeks are pretty good... but just not strong enough to really threaten in Europe...
A few years ago one of their better u/20 WE was out here on holiday: I fenced her and she was good!

I would say that finding an 'absolutely fair and perfect' Olympic qualification system that suits ALL stakeholders is just not possible: there are too many vested interests compounded by the fact that Europe is just too strong for even most Asian and American countries...

I think what we have is at least a step in the right direction...

[Epeecurean]

ndfencer,

I'm not so sure -- I think teams that are ranked 6th in the world (which may be passed over under the current system) have a real shot at winning medals.

Cyranox11,

You wrote...

"So these teams all qualified by default, not too different to teams that qualify by CHOOSING which events to contest (ie those where they can reasonably expect a good result: for example Russia, Italy, France, Germany etc)."

Not too different? Surely you jest!

And then...

"So African fencers are so bad that they can only qualify through the continental criteria: BS!!! Oh and I seem to remember the Egyptian ME team beating the USA at last years WCs... as well as an Egyptian in ME Individual coming in the top 16 (or top 32, I am not sure) at the same competition: the same guy WON the Tunisian World Cup comp (with assorted French, Italian and German fencers present)."

I NEVER said African fencers are so bad that they can only qualify through the continental criteria. I was just pointing out which countries are benefiting and which are losing out under the current system. Egypt just happens to be the greatest beneficiary, but the US and other countries are coming out ahead too.

However, the examples you site don't support your argument. Egypt beating the US? The US men's epee team is certainly doing quite well, but I don't think they can yet be called world-class. As for the S. African fencers in 1996 and 2000...I think in 1996 we were still on the old system, where every country could send teams. And Dario Torrente in 2000, did he qualify globally or from his zone? Remember there is not only team zonal qualification but an individual zonal competition as well.

I do sympathise with the plight of S. Africans and other African fencers in their difficulties competing in World Cups however, and your points are well-taken.

Cheers,
epeecurean

[veeco]

Well, most recently, at the CIP Foil world cup, an American (can't remember which, but one of Kellner, Dupree, Tiomkin) lost to an Egyptian. So the men's foil team from Egypt has at least one strong fencer. I believe he actually finished in the top 16 of the individual tournament.

"edit: Kellner lost to Tahoon, in the top 32, to make the 16. Then Tahoon lost to Nassibouline to make top 8"

[Cyranox11]

Hi

Dario definitely qualified through the FIE world ranking system: I know this because our National Olympic Committee will ONLY send athletes who qualify through the zonal system to the Olympics, if they are black. White fencers MUST qualify through the 'normal' world ranking system, and then the National Olympic Committee will assess them on an individual basis...
We all assumed that as Dario had qualified through the 'normal' system that he was a shoe in: NOCSA disagreed!

As far as I am aware Daniel had to qualify, in 1996, but I am not 100% sure...

Perhaps my reply was worded too strongly, I apologise, but it seems to me (and many other African fencers) that people outside of Africa (as well as some sports administrators within our country, unfortunately) look at the FIE World rankings and see African countries far down on the lists and assume that they are sub-standard and benefitting from an 'unfair' qualification system, without properly interrogating and/or analysing these lists and the results of the fencers concerned! This bugs me!

Perhaops my reply was indictative of my strong objections to similar debates within SA, rather than genuine objections to your post, I am sorry...

A contrite Cyr...

[Epeecurean]

Hi Cyranox,

That's OK, no offense taken. I see where your coming from -- it sounds very frustrating to have such an unsupportive Nat'l Olympic Committee. Would they let a fencer travel on his/her own rand to the Olympics, or does it go beyond the funding question?

[Cyranox11]

Hi
It goes WAAAAAAAY beyond a funding issue!
Both the guys that qualified offered to pay their way to get to the Olympics: nothing doing!
There are political issues involved here (within SA fencing, within our NOC and with central government).
Its quite acomplicated situation and imho it negatively impacts on the results and motivation of our top fencers...
Also, if our top fencers are unmotivated, it affects African fencing: its no good having only one strong country, Africa (and world fencing for that matter) needs South Africa, Egypt, Tunisia and Algeria (at least) to be strong and competitive with eachother and the rest of the world. This will allow newer fencing countries like Senegal, Nigeria, Congo etc etc to develop in a competitive environment...