Sabre grip in epee

[Duelist]

In Epee Fencing: a complete system, Stephan Khinoy writes that some epeeists mount a sabre grip to take maxium advantage of holding the handle as far back as possible (pommeling). My question is has anyone ever pommeled using a sabre grip and did it confer any advantage over pommeling with a standard french grip?

[DHCJr]

That is a bizarre statement, considering the longest a Sabre handle can be WITH a pommel is 17 cm and a French handle can be 18 cm without the pommel. Why loose over 1 cm to pommel?

[veeco]

Being able to put a longer pommel has some advantages: you get more weight at the end of your weapon, so that you can have a better balance.

I've never done this, but I think Paolo used to. Maybe he can chime in.

[Duelist]

How would putting on a longer pommel solve the lenth defficency?

[damianip]

I tried this but found that the sabre grips didn't remain "stable" in use.

The rubber on the Prieur sabre grips would "delaminate" from the steel tube core, causing the grip to feel vague.

The balance was also a bit strange.

I decided my energy would be better spent trying to get my hand and distance to be more refined and went back to conventional French epee grips. Any possible advantage conveyed by this set up would be lost in the "noise" of my crude technique.

Moral of the story:

Use what's comfortable and allows you fence in the most relaxed manner.

Paolo

[Duelist]

Thanks for the information, i'm going to stay with my current french setup which is working quite well. I was primarily just curious.

[veeco]

Originally posted by Duelist
How would putting on a longer pommel solve the lenth defficency?

Simply put, the total length of the grip is restricted to, I think 21cm in epee. So you can vary the length of the elements that make up the grip (handle and pommel) as long as their length totals 21cm. For instance, you can have a 20cm handle and a 1cm pommel, or a 17cm handle and a 4cm pommel. Both these combinations are legal, and you may prefer one or the other.

[DHCJr]

Originally posted by veeco
Simply put, the total length of the grip is restricted to, I think 21cm in epee. So you can vary the length of the elements that make up the grip (handle and pommel) as long as their length totals 21cm. For instance, you can have a 20cm handle and a 1cm pommel, or a 17cm handle and a 4cm pommel. Both these combinations are legal, and you may prefer one or the other.

Veeco, you are usually exactly right, but this time you are a little off. From M4.1 The maximum length of the grip for Foil and Epee is 20 cm, measured between B and E and 18cm, measured between B and D.

You get from M3, what all these letters mean, but of note is M3.6. Only the pommel or the locking nut can be placed between lines D and E.

As I stated above the maximum handle length and that includes all the orthopedic grips as well as the French and Italian is 18cm. You can have a pommel longer than 2cm, but you would have to shorten the grip, but if you had a 1cm pommel, the grip must still be less than 18cm.

[mfp]

Originally posted by DHCJr
You get from M3, what all these letters mean, but of note is M3.6. Only the pommel or the locking nut can be placed between lines D and E.

So when will the USFA's version/interpretation of this M rule catch up to the FIE/BAF and permit single component handles to ignore M3.6?

[pkt]

mfp,

Read the rules, no interpretation is required.

PK

[mfp]

Originally posted by pkt
mfp, Read the rules, no interpretation is required.

Bzzzt!

DHCJr (and others) have stated:

As I stated above the maximum handle length and that includes all the orthopedic grips as well as the French and Italian is 18 cm.

That's probably going to annoy a well-known manufacturer of a 19 cm carbon fibre handle.

Going to the rules:

m.2 (2) states:

A grip [...] may be composed of one or several parts: in the latter case it is divided into a handle (which is normally held in the
hand) and a pommel (rear portion of the hilt which locks the handle onto the tang).

And m 3 (6). states:

Only the pommel or the locking nut can be placed between lines D and E.

So the interpretation required is that if a grip has no pommel, then line D doesn't exist and m.3 (6) is therefore ignored. And if line D doesn't exist then the 18cm max between B and D is ignored and the handle may be longer than 18 cm so long as it doesn't violate the 20cm B to E rule. Hence the development of an 19 cm long handle.

That's a bit different than DHCJr's apparent absolute statement that the "maximum handle length is 18cm".

-mfp (19 cm handle owner :-)

[veeco]

Originally posted by DHCJr
Veeco, you are usually exactly right, but this time you are a little off. From M4.1 The maximum length of the grip for Foil and Epee is 20 cm, measured between B and E and 18cm, measured between B and D.

Which is why I said "I think". I couldn't remember if it was 21 or 20, and didn't bother to look. Thanks for correcting my mistake. I'll try to remember from now on ;-).

However, I think my example still basically stands, you can have a longer pommel if you have shorter handle.

[DHCJr]

To MFP and Veeco,

Just because someone has made an illegal handle and that noone has caught you at it, doesn't make it legal. When was the last time you went through Weapon's control where they actually tested weapons? Even at most World Cups, they don't make use of a Gabarit. M3.6 is very exact, only the pommel can be in that last two cm. It doesn't say the pommel can't be between b and d. It just says that only the pommel can be between d and e.

I personally have failed a number of illegal handles at World Championships. I have also seen others fail them. The fencer had to shorten them.

To MFP. I don't know of any handle that doesn't have a pommel or locking nut. Do you have one that doesn't use a pommel? By the way, if you do, check out M2

[mfp]

Originally posted by DHCJr
To MFP and Veeco,

Just because someone has made an illegal handle and that noone has caught you at it, doesn't make it legal. When was the last time you went through Weapon's control where they actually tested weapons? Even at most World Cups, they don't make use of a Gabarit. M3.6 is very exact, only the pommel can be in that last two cm. It doesn't say the pommel can't be between b and d. It just says that only the pommel can be between d and e.

I personally have failed a number of illegal handles at World Championships. I have also seen others fail them. The fencer had to shorten them.

To MFP. I don't know of any handle that doesn't have a pommel or locking nut. Do you have one that doesn't use a pommel? By the way, if you do, check out M2

So are you are saying you personally will fail any weapon using a Leon Paul carbon fibre grip?

http://www.leonpaul.com/images/shop/...eight_grip.jpg

I wonder if Barry would have any reactions to your stand?

[DHCJr]

Yes, and I would also fail the Gardere that Leon Paul sells. Barry and me have talked about this before. Look at some of the other companies that I have failed equipment from, Uhlamann and their Sabre Lame with the illegal tab and their Guantlets with less than 2cm of overlap on the inside, AllStar and their crimped clips, Prieur and the lack of 40 cm of free length on their body cords, Tripplet and their labels on their lame. This is just some.

Leon Paul is a reputable company. I consider Barry a friend and we have known each other over 15 years, but like most people, we do not agree on everything. There are a number of rules, I don't agree with and this is one of them. But that doesn't mean I won't enforce the rules.

Some of the things that I have said in the clinics I give are "An armorer is not there to make rules, but to enforce them." Also, "knowing the rules is one thing, understanding the rules is more important".

You taught me something I didn't know today. It is not listed on the page that it is 19cm and I haven't seen one yet. On my next order, I will have to get a few.

[mfp]

Originally posted by DHCJr
It is not listed on the page that it is 19cm

Yes, it is. See item 3 under handle specifications.

Its length is listed as 190mm, i.e 19cm.

[dekko]

does the same line of thinking, or do the same rules apply to foils as well? I have known people who fence foil, occassionally, who used sabre grips and liked the control and point percision gained by the grip.

[DHCJr]

Originally posted by mfp
Yes, it is. See item 3 under handle specifications.

Its length is listed as 190mm, i.e 19cm.

Yes it is, but I didn't know that was there. There is no direct link, I go on the web site so much, I went directly to the site without making use of your address you so graciously put out. It would be nice for the shop section to point to the data sheet. But except for that minor flaw, which was my fault for not using the address, this is one of the best and most informative fencing web site.

My favorite sections arethe armory with the directions and the download section with the unofficial rule book which is more up to date than the USFA.

Thank you for telling me about that section. I am going to have fun reading this. There is so much information there.

For dekko, yes the same rules apply, but as stated above, the sabre handle is not a problem. It is shorter, much shorter. With the pommel it must be less than 17cm.

[mfp]

Originally posted by DHCJr
Some of the things that I have said in the clinics I give are "An armorer is not there to make rules, but to enforce them." Also, "knowing the rules is one thing, understanding the rules is more important"

Great. Now take rule m.6 for example, concerning the rules for ortho grips:

m 4.

6. If the grip (or glove) includes any device or attachment or has a special shape (orthopaedic) which fixes the position of the hand on the grip, the grip must conform to the following conditions.

(a) It must determine and fix one position only for the hand on the grip.

(b) When the hand occupies this one position on the grip, the extremity of the thumb when completely extended must not be more than 2 cm from the inner surface of the guard.

So when you (personally) make sure m.4 6(b) is enforced, what two points do you use to measure for the 2cm?

Most people assume the end of the thumb must be no more than 2cm from the "locus" of the inside surface of the guard i.e. around where the blade passes through. But that's not what the rule says, is it? There's no rule mandating from where on the inside surface the measurement be made. Nor is there a rule mandating the distance even be measured even in the same direction the thumb points. It's just from the extremity of the thumb to the inner surface of the guard.

Would you fail a weapon when presented with an ortho grip/hand combo where the user's thumb when completely extended is 2 cm from the inner surface of the guard, but the inner surface in question happens to be the inside surface at the "lip" at the rear of the guard?

Doing some experiments with various grips and guard orientations shows that you can get a pretty good "backed off" ortho grip and still meet the rules as explicitly written.

[DHCJr]

You have missed what an Armorer test for and what the referee checks for. I can pass a weapon and the referee can fail the weapon for one fencer and allow another fencer to use that exact weapon. One of those items is the 2cm rule. An Armorer would never test for that because that rule deals with the fencer themself. When someone brings up a weapon to control, I do not pass the weapon so that only one that particular person can use it.

Another example, at a local tournament, I passed a brand new lame. It was stamped and everything. The fencer was not allowed to fence with it. The referee disallowed it for fit.

Don't ask me about the 2cm rule. I am not a referee and I don't claim to be.