Fencing.Net - Your Guide to Fencing & Fencing Equipment

dberke · 02-02-2004, 03:24 PM

I have a question for all of you out there who currently direct at the national level.

What are the requirements for volunteering to direct (i.e. minimum directors rating, if any) at a NAC or Summer Nationals? I've taken the 2-day long refereeing course here in my division and passed the general, foil, and epee tests. As I understand it, that gives me a 10 rating in those weapons. I've been directing as much as possible during practice fencing, novice tournaments, and occasionally at larger local events. I suspect that if I were observed by an examiner, I'd at least qualify for a 9 or 8 depending on what the criteria are.

I'd like to start giving back to my sport by directing nationally. (Plus, I just enjoy it!) Do any of the experienced folks out there have any tips on how to approach starting the process? My instinct is to start off doing something like Div III epee - a little less pressure than foil. That way I could get comfortable with the atmosphere of directing before moving up to the challenge (and screaming coaches) of foil.

Thanks,
Dan

achilleus · 02-02-2004, 03:37 PM

Contact the FOC.

The generally require a level 5 in 2 weapons for the Div 1 NAC's.

The lower level events are used as testing grounds, so the requirements can vary slightly. Summer nationals is a great example, and they are always desperate for refs. Especially those individuals that are good with children, since that's most likely where they'll test you.

They will only fly a ref out if the ref is available for 2 or more days. It's not cost effective otherwise. And that varies depending on how good the ref is, and how long the tournament is.

Also, practice a lot. At divisional tournaments, but more importantly, sectional events. Those can be quite large, and offer a good chance to practice and officiate over some new fencers.

The0ne · 02-02-2004, 04:23 PM

The more you practice, the better you'll be. That's really all I can say besides have fun while you're doing it, even though for me it's mostly stress, especially those tough bouts where the calls are really close. . .

Namir · 02-02-2004, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The0ne
...even though for me it's mostly stress, especially those tough bouts where the calls are really close. . .

Arn't you 15!!!

KShan5[PrFC] · 02-02-2004, 09:19 PM

What does age have to do with anything? He's a 7, better than most 5 year olders granted, but then there are vets who have no rating.

labouche · 02-02-2004, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The0ne
The more you practice, the better you'll be. That's really all I can say besides have fun while you're doing it, even though for me it's mostly stress, especially those tough bouts where the calls are really close. . .

Like when you mess up the final call of a B tourny in the semi-final bout.

haha. sorry couldn't resist....I still feel bad for you over that one.
-elijah

Dan H · 02-02-2004, 10:47 PM

First, you should contact the FOC examiner in your area and try to arrange a "practical" examination so that he or she can, hopefully, recommend you for a rating higher than a 10. They really prefer to use 5s and up for national events, although they stretch it a little bit for Summer Nationals and Div II/III NACs.
Then, you need to get yourself invited by the FOC to referee either at Summer Nationals or at a Div II/III NAC. Once you're there, you've got an opportunity to prove you can handle it. Until then, practice, get better, and don't get too discouraged. We need more capable refs around, and you don't go from bad to okay, okay to good, or good to excellent (so I hear) overnight.

R. Exnicios · 02-03-2004, 03:49 AM

First let me say that I have just recently started the process of re earning my director's rating and have not really refereed on the national level. (I deal with sports related issues everyday and prefer to just fence!)

Every fencer should be able to direct (oops referee) but be prepared the national level is very political and can even be clickish. If you want to rise up the ranks, higher than a 5 you may need to do a little sucking up.

Good luck & have fun!

Cheers

achilleus · 02-03-2004, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by R. Exnicios
Every fencer should be able to direct (oops referee) but be prepared the national level is very political and can even be clickish. If you want to rise up the ranks, higher than a 5 you may need to do a little sucking up.

A little?!?

That is an understatement.

CarlKnoch · 02-03-2004, 02:14 PM

And it is for that reason that I'll probably never have my 5 or better... No sucking up ability at all.

achilleus · 02-03-2004, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CarlKnoch
And it is for that reason that I'll probably never have my 5 or better... No sucking up ability at all.

I just have too much pride.

Peach · 02-03-2004, 02:28 PM

You don't have to "suck up." All you have to do is show up, volunteer, and be willing to work on your competence by observing, asking questions, and fixing what you do wrong. *

I have a 5 because I volunteered to referee at several Summer Nationals (hey, if I have a day off, why not help out?) and one year, without noticing, I apparently took my practical. They need referees and they want to encourage people to do it.

*Of course, that's what the eleven-year-olds I teach define as "sucking up," and if that's what you mean by "sucking up" you probably don't get a whole lot achieved in general.

oiuyt · 02-03-2004, 02:56 PM

I have to agree with Peach here. I have 2 4's and a 5 and I expect all of those ratings to be improved at the FOC meeting in September. I don't feel that I suck up, nor have I ever felt the need to, nor the feeling that I was somehow being held back because of a lack of doing so.

I referee because I enjoy doing so, because I feel that it gives back to the sport, because I think it improves me as a fencer, because I feel that I'm good at it and I enjoy doing things that I'm good at, and because it helps cover the expenses of going to all the NACs I want to go to.

There may be politics at the 1-2 level or among the FOC (certainly there are rumors of such, although I've seen no direct evidence to that effect, but not being at that level I wouldn't necesarily know). I doubt that it extends below that level to any meaningful degree even if it's present there. There's likely to be considerably more politics being played by coaches either positioning refs to favor the actions preferred by their fencers or in making sure the "right" (or at least not the "wrong") referee is assigned to their fencer as you approach the medal rounds than there is with whether or not this referee deserves that rating.

If you want a high rating then develop your skills and referee enough that the FOCs feel comfortable using you. As this happens your ratings will gradually be increased and it will be easier and easier to be hired for future events (both because you'll have proven yourself and because the hiring FOC is more likely to know that you can handle the job... why should s/he hire someone unknown when these three people who s/he DOES know are capable are interested?).

Looking for political games is a bit like looking for conspiracies. Yeah, rumors are easy to come by and sometimes fun, but the reality tends to be much more mundane and straightforward. You can certainly get to the point where you can be hired to work any national event without trying to play political games.

Incidently, the FOC now has guidelines for how many referees of each level (1-2, 3, 4-5, 6-10) should be hired for each type of event. Div II/III NACs and Summer Nationals require the FOCs to high a significant percentage of officials from the pool of 6-10 rated referees. Work these events and gradually your ratings will increase as your ability and exposure merit. Also at this level

-B :)

achilleus · 02-03-2004, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Peach
You don't have to "suck up." All you have to do is show up, volunteer, and be willing to work on your competence by observing, asking questions, and fixing what you do wrong. *

I have a 5 because I volunteered to referee at several Summer Nationals (hey, if I have a day off, why not help out?) and one year, without noticing, I apparently took my practical. They need referees and they want to encourage people to do it.

*Of course, that's what the eleven-year-olds I teach define as "sucking up," and if that's what you mean by "sucking up" you probably don't get a whole lot achieved in general.

For a 5 that's all you need. For a 4, that can work too.

The FOC is highly politicized. Being well liked is important to moving up in your rating regardless of how well you see the actions.

Peach · 02-03-2004, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by achilleus
For a 5 that's all you need. For a 4, that can work too.

The FOC is highly politicized. Being well liked is important to moving up in your rating regardless of how well you see the actions.

Regardless of how well you see the actions? No. Will being well-liked help you move up if you're reasonably competent? Yeah. You will find that true in almost any endeavor of human life.

Agent_V · 02-03-2004, 08:34 PM

Look, what FOC examiners like most are refs who direct well (Duh!!). When you are called up for duty, just pay attention, call those close calls as you feel them, conduct the bouts in a professional manner, treat the competitors, coaches, and other referees with respect, and most everyone, especially FOC reps, will like you. I really wouldn't be worrying about ratings, after all, you are doing this for the love of the sport right?

-Alexander

Agent_V · 02-03-2004, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by labouche
Like when you mess up the final call of a B tourny in the semi-final bout. haha. sorry couldn't resist....I still feel bad for you over that one.
-elijah

Elijah, what was the scenario and call? (I'm curious...)

labouche · 02-03-2004, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Agent_V
Elijah, what was the scenario and call? (I'm curious...)

Isaiah was directing the semi-final bout at the fall-foliage between Tucker and Ian Lablonk (canadian guy). The score is 14-14 and Ian does an attack and tucker just counter-attacked into it...for some reason Isaiah thought Ian was preparing.....A slow-mo reply on a hand-cam convinced him otherwise. I fealt pretty bad.

-Elijah

Agent_V · 02-03-2004, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by labouche
Isaiah was directing the semi-final bout at the fall-foliage between Tucker and Ian Lablonk (canadian guy). The score is 14-14 and Ian does an attack and tucker just counter-attacked into it...for some reason Isaiah thought Ian was preparing.....A slow-mo reply on a hand-cam convinced him otherwise. I fealt pretty bad.
-Elijah

Ouch. Well, live and learn I guess...

achilleus · 02-04-2004, 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Peach
Regardless of how well you see the actions? No. Will being well-liked help you move up if you're reasonably competent? Yeah. You will find that true in almost any endeavor of human life.

A while back I saw this one ref presiding over the finals at an NAC. He didn't have the highest rank, and most of his calls drew strange looks from the competitors during the bout.

I talked to a friend of mine who is a member of the FOC. I asked 'What gives? This guy is rated a 2, and he's blowing calls. He's been blowing them all day. Why's he doing the final?'

'He's _______ good friend.'

I saw the ref in question for a while, then he disappeared once he fell out of favor with his 'good friend'.

I've seen it happen. Good refs not promoted because the right people dislike them, and bad refs promoted because they have connected friend.