Declare your Style!!

[haggis]

After the Nick E thread I would like to ask: how would you describe your style. Your choices seem to be 1)Sport fencing (i.e. adrenaline-fuelled result junkies), Classical fencing (i.e. technique-obsessed tight-asses) or Historical fencing (i.e. leftovers from a previous century, possibly with delusions). Offence, I hope, is equally distibuted, so no-one feels left out/victimised. If anyone would like to be included/insulted,please feel free to add your style to those I've mentioned.

In the interests of opening up this thread, I'd describe myself interested purely in fencing as a sport. Competitive (national titles/World Championships participation (best 22nd World Juniors (v. ordinary) , etc.)from age 10 onwards till retirement (at 29) then as coach to competitive fencers (4 years, more national titles, World Champs). For me, other styles have rarely intruded into my fencing life and consequently, I tend to view them as oddities/side issues.

As a sop to CF fencers my coach in formative years (10 to 17, when I received most lessons) was quite classical (no flicks, target to middle of chest, etc) and I suppose that my style as fencer and coach has been heavily influenced by that.

So come on, dare to post your style(s) so we all know where you stand,

Haggis

(some may feel exempt on the grounds that their posts have aleady identified them sufficiently)

[ 05-17-2002: Message edited by: haggis ]</p>

[Bebop and Rocksteady]

I'm a wrastler

[Peach]

Sport fencer. I'm all for technique and artistry, if it wins me bouts in the long run. My eyes glaze over when people talk about the history of the sport, even if it's history I was around for.

[Ben[PrFC]]

I'd say Im both fully immersed in the sport element as well as the culture and community.
I've come to define myself as a fencer. Ever since I got into it just over a year ago, I started going to tournaments after having only been fencing a few weeks actually. Since then, if there has been a tournament that I was eligible to enter, I've gone.
I dont think I've missed one tournament that I could possibly have gone to, neither for work or school or other social obligations. I get jumpy if I miss practice once or twice a week, and go insane on weeks when there are no tournaments.
The main appeal of fencing for me is that it seems most of the really good fencers are also very intelligent people, subsequently also very nice people.
I could go forever on the dynamic social element that intrigues me, but...I'm sure everyone knows exactly what Im talking about. It's hard not to.
<img src="graemlins/freak4.gif" border="0" alt="[Freak2]" />

[A Genteel Point]

Mc Haggis...

You must give room for a little classicalism in all of us, or else we would not all be attracted to the "art" of fencing with such passion that we would sit and participate in this unathletic activity of posting on this site. So the sense of contradiction is in all of us fencers.

I am new, and yet I have old sentiments ... I am overwhelmed by the classical techniques and moves when I see them. The sports and goal oriented focus will promote fencing yes, but I suspect that it is still the tradition of this noble art that we all still embrace ... where we disable the opponent in combat through means and manouvres that can be accomplished only by the classical style.

After everything is said and done, we need a dose of each of those styles you listed. We may all be born a century or two too late, but the psychological exercise of fencing is timeless.

I would like the art of fencing to return to the flickless era. En guarde!

<img src="graemlins/fett.gif" border="0" alt="[The Fett]" />

[D'Artagnan1673]

Geeze, Haggis, I consider the glove thrown. I know that you were primarily referring to me when you say that some people may be exempt from posting since everyone already knows where they stand. However, having been provoked, you will get to hear my say anyway.

I am a competitive fencer and a classical fencer. My adrenaline gets pumped heavily during a long, tense bout. Ask Flying Phil, he will tell you that I am the only fencer at my salle' who yells and makes a fist after points. On the flip side, I am definately an uptight, classical fencer. I win by giving myself more strokes at my disposal than other fencers. The classical fencing style has many advantages at my level. I have been told by a gentleman I fenced in my last DE that I am fun to fence because you never know what I will do. By him saying that, I would imagine that most people he fences have one good move that they use over and over.

I love fencing with a passion. I am currently a U in all three weapons with 2 tournaments under my belt. The first one saw many highly ranked fencers from all over Texas, I placed 37 of 51. The last one was April 6. It had 18 compeditors of whom most had fenced about as long as I had, 1-2 years. I took 6th having drawn my club's best fencer in the quarterfinals. This week will be my third tournament and my first in epee. To give you an idea of how much I love fencing, I'll tell this personal story of mine.

I had been looking forward to this tournament for weeks when Monday my Dad told me that my baby sister's 2nd birthday party was to be held the day and time of the tournament. I blew up, yelled and pouted for days and desperately wanted to skip but knew I couldn't. I prayed for rain, its an outdoor party, and it rained all day today so the party was moved to Sunday. I love fencing so much that I would have gladly skipped my sister's party for it. Meddling with my fencing times puts me in a very bad mood. Only for my girlfriend will I happily skip anything fencing related. I go nuts missing any day myself. I study classical fencing because I don't just want to win, I want to win with style. I want people to ooh and ahh at the graceful figure I cut on the piste. People will see that a classical nut like myself is just as capable of results as the modern fencer. I want to breath new life into a sport that is taking on a very ugly and ungraceful look IMO.

To be honest, I haven't fenced for long. I say I've fenced for over 2 years, but that isn't quite true. For the first 3 months, I was only able to fence 1 day a week with no coach. After that, I fenced from May till December, then fenced sporadically from December till May. I then went back diehard from May till early September. I then didn't fence until early February. I fenced for about a month then was forced out with a back injury for a month. Also, my club only meets twice a week for 2 hours, I really don't have much time to fence. Lets add it together.... I've really only fenced roughly 13 and a half months, and its not all continuous. This is also lacking a coach for the most part. I have had to rely upon sparadic coaching, veteren members, and Evangelista, Crosnier, Beaumont and Crown. Sink me!!! I'm still a newbie. If I can take on fencers with twice the fencing time as me, I am taking them at their word, with more tournament experience and a full time coach, then I say I'm not too shabby. Now that I live on my own (no more unsuportive parents doing their best to hinder my tournament time) and have more money, I intend to go to every feasable tournament. We are about to find out just how much I've learned, and how much I still need to learn.

[damianip]

Sport fencing.

To put a finer point on it, I aspire to fence épée in what has been called the "Italian style" by several former Soviet system coaches I know.

Briefly described, consists of posting a French grip, looking for cheap touches and hoping that you can channel a mishmash of the flamboyant styles of Milanoli, Mazzoni and Randazzo.

Unfortunately, since I'm not that good at it, it's just bad fencing...


Paolo

[ 05-18-2002: Message edited by: damianip ]</p>

[Inquartata]

All three, actually. Primarily, I fence modern Hungarian sport sabre, but I throw in a bit of old Italian sabre ( which might be called "classical", I daresay ) now and then, just to bamboozle people who have never seen it before. In epee I suppose I lean to the classical simply because I don't fence it seriously but only as a way to get more fencing and as practice for SCA rapier ( which may be called 'historical fencing', if loosely ). I also like to practice stuff from the old manuals, not only rapier ( Spanish, primarily ) but longsword and sidesword as well...

To paraphrase the quote from Terentius, "I am a swordsman; everything concerning the sword is of interest to me".

[Catlady]

I'm a sport fencer I guess. Really, as I often joke because my ancestry is primarily North European (German, Danish, English with a bit of Norman thrown in), I am a beserk. As much as I am trying to fence with my head, so to speak. I still seem to do better in my "I'm going to tear down this strip and hit you and you can't do diddly about it" mode. Before I someone else fires off a post (or maybe, given the subject a riposte ) I realize that's inexperience. Still right now, my only two modes seem to be hyper-agressive, or nearly out of touch with the bout because I'm trying so hard to work on defense.

I will continue to maintain that fencing falls into the category of martial art, that is it is both martial and an art. I truly don't think the two are mutually exclusive even for us sport fencers. Granted it doesn't look much like an art when I fence right now, although I do have my hopes, but having some of my betters fence, it certainly can be. After all, haven't we all heard someone say "Pretty touche"? Not "strong touche", or "aggressive touche", not even for that matter accurate touche, although I'll admit nice touche comes up frequently, unfortunately not in reference to me very often , but "pretty touche"? Granted there are plenty of ugly touches, or slimey touches, after all there are no extra points for style, but there are also plenty of very beautiful actions. That may be a function of who taught me and the majority of the people I fence with to fence, since he fences a highly mental game, and isn't into brute force, to some extent he can't get away with it.
Other martial arts are the same way, you can certainly do damage to someone, but performed right they're beautiful. The only martial art I have much experience with is Tai Chi, which is practiced more as a meditation, but if you've done it, or really watched it you know there's a lot of power in the moves, especially if you do them fast.

Anyway that's my rant, and my work here, as general know-it-all-and-not-afraid-to-say-so is done.

[Catlady]

I lied, I do have more to say. Yes, I did get into fencing partially because of the whole three musketeer/ princesss bride/honorable duel thing. To me sport fencing both is and isn't the modern evolution of such. I don't want to get in an argument--and I've really got to get to bed--so I'll cheat and not go into reasons right now. On the other hand I'm still somewhat interested in the old image, and to some extent, like D'art. born a few centuries too late. I vow one of these days to look into Society for Creative Anachronism. As much as some sport fencers bad mouth it, I'm still interested. However I think they meet on my fencing night, so no dice I'm afraid. Then I'd also like to learn to do stagefighting, or actually choreograph it since there aren't really any roles that require female swordsmen--the only one I can think of as far as the "classics" go is perhaps Viola in 12th Night, but I don't think she's supposed to necessarily be good. Of course if George Lucas is ever looking for a really scary, female Jedi Knight, I might be persuaded .

Thus is the eternal student I guess.

[sabreur]

I'm a sport fencer, with a master trained at one of the best Hungarian sports universities, who teaches in what might be described as very traditional manner.

"Today there is no black and white,
Just shifting shades of gray."

Cheers, MR

[Bebop and Rocksteady]

Bit more serious here now.

I'm a classical fencer. But, I guess you could say I'm a sport fencer too, because I enjoy both the science and techniques of the italian school, and I'm competitive at the same time.

I think the terms "classical fencer", "sport fencer", and "modern fencer" are awkward and dislikable terms. Because, for the most part, all classical fencers are sport fencers, and both are modern fencers.

So just because I'm 'classically' oriented doesn't mean I don't like to compete in tournaments and things like that.

[edelstein]

Well I agree with Bebop, I also learn classical fencing techniques but I do sport fencing and we are all modern fencers.
I found very funny haggis's "tight asses" thing
I learn classical and my coach is one of the few ones around who teaches classical fencing and uses a french grip and all, he dislikes the new rules and always says that the coupe and flick technique will not be superior to the point control technique. His views match in many aspects with Nick E's. I have no problems with that, I like classical fencing and I like to compete as sport. What I don't like either is how rules have changed so badly, that even touching with a bend arm is valid, for example, and that many judges (here) are biased. Alas, is the fencing atmosphere in Mexico too viced already. Even more than arguing if classical or modern style is better, my fear is that fencing will tend to disappear, as it's not as popular as soccer or basketball, and it takes a long time to master. This might not happen in the US but here it's always the same people you bout with at competences each year, and about always the same people who win. Even though this is my first year of tournaments, I've noticed all of this already. Well at least there's an effort to make a fencing page of Mexico, put up just a couple months ago, which intends to have a forum more or less like this one and other features. But for classical, we are a few specimens here, nobody else except for my own coach's students compete with a french grip at tournaments, nor holds the free hand up. So you could spot us fairly easy at a tournament. Unfortunately, the advanced students of my coach have all gradually stopped competing and even training, so we're now mostly 1-2 year or less experienced fencers. There's another coach at my club, he teaches modern style using the pistol grip and all, but I haven't seen his students being better just because of that, and they too, are few. Don't know really if they also have so little quorum in other clubs around, must happen in some other clubs too.
I agree with D'artagnan in learning classical to put the sport junkies (haggis said it!) in their place. Kind of my idea, too. And it works. I've noticed that the more I dominate my point control I can avoid the flicks/coupes sideways or to the back easier, because they can't catch my blade. It's cool. When I get more experience I'll tell my coach whether he was right.

[Prometheus]

The terms sport, classical, modern and historical are accepted classifications by large groups of fencers. I think they are perfectly realistic especially in light of the fact that the groups themselves accept the definitions.

In the common Lexicon:

Sport = modern = FIE rules set and competition circut.

Classical = 19th C style fencing

Historical = pre 19th style civilian martial arts training

It is possible to practive both andy combonation of these sports/martial arts, but the fact remains that they are for the most part mutually exclusive. The values, pedagogy, scoring and intent are different. This is why each group holds thier own competitions.

The website of the Martinez Academy has an excillent <a href="http://www.martinez-destreza.com/fenfaq.htm#classical" target="_blank">FAQ</a>that treats these classifications fairly and impartially from a taxanomic stantpoint. I am grateful that M. Martinez has shown that some people are able to avoid value jugements in describing the different types of fencing.

In a way, I think it is silly for a coach to teach fencing for modern competitions while restricting his or her students because of a dislike for rules changes. Each of these styles exist for that reason. They each have thier own rules which cater the the desires of the partisipants. That way, a modern fencer will not be penalized for droping his or her trailing arm and a classical fencer can be firm in his or her interpertation of right of way as opposed to more modern interpertations. Some other people who have more experience traveling between these camps might be able to provide more insight.

[edelstein]

Yes I agree in rules for each style being different, my first tournaments have been confusing and discouraging for me, but it's the only chance to compete, there are just 2 tournaments of 3 competitions per year here, that's it, there are no special tournaments/divisions for classical. In a way it's fine with me, otherwise there would be a greater 'schism' within fencing if each style had its own tournaments. I understand there is indeed in the US, right?

[reptile]

[quote]Originally posted by sabreur:
<strong>I'm a sport fencer, with a master trained at one of the best Hungarian sports universities, who teaches in what might be described as very traditional manner.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

Same goes for me. I deeply respect and appreciate other approaches to fencing, except ear chopping fraternity duelling.

[shyHeidi]

[quote]Originally posted by haggis:
<strong>How would you describe your style?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Ahem, well... There is another group that you haven't listed, and that's beginners. Beginners are in a group of their own, no? I am not a fencer, but I fence. I am a beginner. I wouldn't call myself a fencer even remotely yet. I have no stance on the sport/classical thing. Ah, beginners... yup.

[haggis]

I haven't read the discussion board for a couple of days but a find the number of responses gratifying and fascinating.

To D'Art

You weren't actually targeted but thanks for responding so fully.

For everyone else

The definitions I offered were necessarily loose, vague, imprecise, etc. and I'll happily apologise to anyone who feels they deserve it. Please try to remember that I post here for fun and healthy, stimulating debate

For ShyHeidi

You are probably right. Beginners can't declare their style (although others may try based on who coaches them). There is always the option of abstaining, although a quick look at your club-mates and where and if they compete can help to form an idea of where you're headed.

Haggis

[Peach]

[quote]Originally posted by shyHeidi:
<strong>

Ahem, well... There is another group that you haven't listed, and that's beginners. Beginners are in a group of their own, no? I am not a fencer, but I fence. I am a beginner. I wouldn't call myself a fencer even remotely yet. I have no stance on the sport/classical thing. Ah, beginners... yup.</strong><hr></blockquote>

As a beginner, I think I would have characterized my style as "Frankenstein monster." That stage lasted a couple of years for me. Think really big feet and stiff legs, along with an alarming air of being about to fall over on my opponent.

[Shadow Fencer]

I'm a mixture of the two. I was initially trained in the classical style over 20 years ago, took a 22 year break between my 5th and 6th fencing years and in returning to the sport was introduced to "modern fencing" which was defined for me as doing anything to get the box to light up! Yes, I did fence electrically and was amazed my old equipment (which has been replaced with new stuff) worked!

Although I competed 20 years ago, the style of 2002 definitely is different than 1974! Not better, not worse, just different!