Celebrating each point

[danp]

I'm curious to hear from some refs out there - have you ever actually been swayed in your decision towards a fencer who yelled and pumped their fist in the air in victory after a touch? To be a successful competitor, is this a necessary thing to do?

It seems that all but the most obvious of calls receive a victory punch in the air by both parties these days, and the move has lost it's meaning to me whilst watching bouts. I discount it completely and just feel silly doing it.

I'm sure some do it out of pure elation - but what's the real scoop on this in terms of strategy... Does it do any good?

Thanks for any input,
-Dan

[The0ne]

No. For me the victory yelling is just part of the scenery. When I yell, it's usually because I am really pumped up, and I yell at everything that is nice that I score.

[klauver]

It sounds like you have been watching the 2003 mens foil world championships. I think that some fencers think that they can influence close calls by making it sound like they just know it was so obvious that it was their touch that the director has to be an idiot to call it against them.
To get so excited after every touch seems obnoxious to me and I try even harder to silence their enthusiasm! Save the shouts for the 15-14 win in a DE!

[achilleus]

Originally posted by danp
I'm curious to hear from some refs out there - have you ever actually been swayed in your decision towards a fencer who yelled and pumped their fist in the air in victory after a touch? To be a successful competitor, is this a necessary thing to do?

It seems that all but the most obvious of calls receive a victory punch in the air by both parties these days, and the move has lost it's meaning to me whilst watching bouts. I discount it completely and just feel silly doing it.

I'm sure some do it out of pure elation - but what's the real scoop on this in terms of strategy... Does it do any good?

Thanks for any input,
-Dan

Yes it can make a difference. Not every touch, not every ref, but it can.

I was coaching a junior NAC talking with two members of the FOC. My student was fencing on a strip with a relatively new ref. The 2 FOC members asked me what I thought of the ref. I replied, 'Not bad. A little inconsistent, and unconfident especially when determining who took the blade. With a little work the ref could really improve.' One said 'Must be difficult to coach your fencer when you have a ref like that.' I said, 'Naw, I just told my kid to sell his touch to the ref.'

At that point my kid made an attack, got parried but celebrated anyway. The ref awarded the touch to my student.

The FOC members looked at me, and said 'Nice job coaching. We'll talk to the ref later.'

I have also spoken with refs who do say that body language after an action has influenced their decision. The example given was when 2 lights went off, and one fencer celebrated, and the other dropped the weapon, slumped shoulders, and walked dejectedly away.

So, it's ain't right, but it's part of fencing, especially as you are working your way up and don't yet have reputation. Once you have a rep, the celebration just reenforces your *ahem* opinion to the ref.

For example, let's say you're fencing foil with Sergei Golubitsky. We all know he's better. There's an action that puts on two lights and is a timing situation. It's a close call that could go either way, except that Sergei celebrates and you just stand there.

[telkanuru]

I take yelling as a fencers assertion that their vocal cords have not yet been punctured, nothing more. However, I have noted (with some amusement) that some, if not most fencers, have different yells based on situation, and from that I can deduce something about what they thought had happened examples:
Yaaaahhhh! - You bet your bippy I got that point
Yah? - I think what I did was a parry
Bah! - What I did should have been a parry
Aiiiiiii! - I should have bought that 800N jacket, as blades do occasionally break.

I've also noticed especially loud and repetative yells annoying other fencers and refs to the point of distraction. I, as a general rule, disapprove of this, but acknowledge the stress releaving ability of the yell, even if it just makes you sound constapated.

[danp]

I understand... I can learn to make a little show when appropriate... As with much in fencing, it seems that "when appropriate" boils down to experience and the ability to observe.

Thanks for the feedback,
-D

Originally posted by achilleus
Yes it can make a difference. Not every touch, not every ref, but it can.

For example, let's say you're fencing foil with Sergei Golubitsky. We all know he's better. There's an action that puts on two lights and is a timing situation. It's a close call that could go either way, except that Sergei celebrates and you just stand there.

[Hurriranger]

i've never done this but i have a habit of repeating the action that just happened. so when i parry riposte and both lights go up, i would repeat the parry riposte action to the air. but i think from now on, im gonna yell "YES!" also. obviously not every situation tho.... like when your light isn't even on.

[Zelda]

Hurriranger, I'll look out for that action at the next Qafa comp I come to! If you want interesting yells, go watch some of the Qld womens foilists, not so much yells as squeals.

[bjacobs]

Yelling and acting confidently can make a difference with some directors, and the fencers on strip aren't the only ones who can influence directors in this way. A friend of mine was fencing at San Jose with a truly terrible director, doing perhaps the worst job of directing sabre I'd ever seen at a national event. I planted myself two feet behind the director and a bit to my fencer's side and bellowed praise whenever she won (or should have won) a touch. It helped.

[Thomas]

Tiger Woods does his fist pump, Ive seen some martial artists do a fancy kick or flashy flip after winning. I think that some kind of cool sword spin would do the trick. In my experience refing fencing bouts ( 4 times ) I try and be fair. But I ALWAYS favor the one that shows better etiquette. This goes for any sport I ref at. Good sportsmanship is totally necessary. Now that I think of it. Victory celebrations might not be ok. Because it may work as a taunt towards your opponent.

[Tireur]

In my experience refing fencing bouts

Thought you just took your first lesson....

But I ALWAYS favor the one that shows better etiquette.

Bad idea, you should call what you see. Not for who you think is the nicest. There should be no benefit of the doubt. If you're not sure, say so.

[GreenDot]

I almost never yell during a bout, but sometimes not yelling can put you at a significant disadvantage. I had never yelled during a bout (2 and half years of competition) until this weekend, when I had a referee who seemed quite unsure about a lot of his calls and was genuinely swayed if one fencer yelled and the other did not. I saw this more than once, so made a conscious decision to yell in the middle just like the other guy was so that I wouldn't lose a touch just because he was louder. Say what you will about etiquette, but with some refs it is definately a disadvantage to be quiet. The ref aside though, yelling seemed to help my intensity in the two bouts where I did it. I was really pumped up, and it definately seemed to help me stay in them.

-James

[Inquartata]

Heh, well, with some refs it's probably a disadvantage if you don't speak Russian, too. How many of us are going to try to influence them by learning it?

For my part, I have to fight the inclination to let yells and gesticulations convince me that the fencer couldn't get the job done with his fencing and so is trying a "save" with his antics. Thus as a referee, on a subconscious level I may well be influenced negatively, rather than positively, by celebrations. I hope not, but that'd be more likely than being influenced positively...

[Tireur]

Thus as a referee, on a subconscious level I may well be influenced negatively, rather than positively, by celebrations.

Of course, that's just you talking. Kinda reminds me of Roger Maris in "61".

Reporter: "Well, Inquartata, how do you feel about winning the National Championship in Geezer Sabre?"

Inquartata: "Pretty Good, I guess....."

[wflaschka]

Cheering to "sell" a point might sometimes be useful, but many directors will see a yell in that situation and consciously remind themselves that the yell doesn't matter. Cheering to show intent and execution -- slightly different; it can inform the director that the fencer wanted the outcome, and at the very least the director may parse the action again in their mind before speaking.

But nobody mentions yells with one-light actions. The best, most forgivable yells are fencers cheering for themselves, rather than against an opponent or for a director.

[Inquartata]

Well, if one considers braggadocio and egoism to be GOOD things, I suppose...

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by Tireur
Of course, that's just you talking.

Writing, ectually.

[wflaschka]

Originally posted by Inquartata
Well, if one considers braggadocio and egoism to be GOOD things, I suppose...

Braggadocio... well.. perhaps it's better than the alternative, being a poor sport and anti-cheering? (It's getting late... I wrote "spoort" twice instead of poor+sport.) But: egoism is better than egotism anyday!. :P

[o4aversob]

Originally posted by Hurriranger
i've never done this but i have a habit of repeating the action that just happened. so when i parry riposte and both lights go up, i would repeat the parry riposte action to the air. but i think from now on, im gonna yell "YES!" also. obviously not every situation tho.... like when your light isn't even on.

This is quite interesting Hurriranger because I do the same thing in a very discrete way, when two lights come on. I repeat the foil action to myself as if to comfort me mentally that I did the right move. Also, I suppose I do it hoping the ref would see in a somewhat "subliminal" way what my action was. But typically I repeat the action too unnoticeable because I don't want to look argumentative and pushy about what call they're about to make.

[Katman]

The more effort I put into a touch, the more likely I am to express my pleasure over having managed it. Any celebration on my behalf is only done when I feel certain I nailed the touch (and I mean like, one-light certain). If it's a double light situation then I stand after the halt and just watch the director, wait for his or her analysis then come en guarde for the next touch.

If it was an easy touch then I just stroll on back to my en guarde line. I see no point in celebrating too much if I've basically kicked a goal while there was no goalie around (unless, of course, it was a better fencer who made a mistake; in that case I'll dance back to my en guarde line throwing confetti into the air before we resume the ***-kicking)

That's just me though.