Basic question on parrying

[starlightdust]

Hi all!

In Nick Evangelista's book it is written:

"For instance, if your opponent attacks into the line of quarte, you may parry quarte or contre de sixte. If he attacks into the line of sixte, you may parry sixte or contre de quarte."

I'm just learning parrys here so I'm not sure I understand... If the opponent attacks into the line of quarte, wouldn't the two parry options be quarte and contre de quarte?? (and vice et versa)

And about the lines... For left-handed people, is the sixte located on the top right side or is it always on the side of the sword??

Thanks!!

[jBirch]

Starlightdust,

contre-de-sixte pulls the blade from the 4 line into the six line. It's a little bit more dangerous because of the possibility of dragging the point into your chest. Contre-de-quarte pulls the point from 6 into 4. Contre also indicates where you start from, so if you're in 4 to do a contre-de-quarte you've already closed out 4 so the motion is redundant! Think of 4 and 6 as destinations and the parry transiting to get to a new destination. Why go from 4 to 4?

There are actually many parry options to a given attack and Evangelista is trying to get you to think about your responses and not get into a defensive pattern (which is easy to deceive). Prime, seconde, 7 and 8 can be elevated to take care of 4 and 6 and all can be executed as contre, lateral AND semi-circular. As you progress, you'll start to see this more and more.

The lines, technically, are refered to as high inside (4), high outside (6), low inside (7), low outside (8). That means that, for a lefty, 4 should be the right high side. However, for ease of instructing large groups, most instructions are given as if you were a righty so you may get contradictory instructions when the instructor is actually talking about right side or left side.

Hope this helps!

[The0ne]

First, take everything written by Nick "modern foil is the devil" Evangelista with grain of salt. If your opponent disengages around your 4 parry counter-4 is a good option, same with 6 and counter-6.

[GGK]

No the mechanics described are correct. Assumming you are right handed in sixth position and a point is heading towards your chest (on the left side of your blade) you can (1)deflect it to the left, with a 4 parry or (2)or deflect it to the right with a counter 6 (a clockwise cirle)
The same logic applies to the second part of the question.

About lines...It is reversed left and right for a lefty...It's easier for me to think in terms of inside and outside.

[jeff]

Hi Starlightdust,

If your opponent attacks into the line of quarte you can parry 4 (quarte) or counter 6 (contre de sixte). They protect the line either by moving the parrying blade sideways (lateral) across the chest (4) or making a circle under the attacking point that brings it back onto the line of 6. If you are already in a guard of quarte, you've closed the line of 4 (a point coming down that side of your blade is already prevented from hitting you); a counter 4 (contre de quarte) sweeps the line protected by 6! (I see jBirch has beaten me to this!)

Lines are reversed for lefties. The lateral motion for a 6 (if starting from a neutral position) is a leftward motion.

If this is hard to picture, find one of those charts that breaks the target area into quadrants, or better yet, have somebody show this to you. It's more easily understood by showing it than by trying to describe it!

[edew]

The sixte line is always the upper chest on the side of your weapon arm, independent of your handedness. The quarte line is always the upper chest on the side of your non-weapon arm.

The seconde or octave line (they cover the same, using a different hand position) is the lower chest/belly area on your weapon arm side. The prime/septieme line is your lower chest/belly area on your non-weapon arm.

In reality, you may employ any parry you wish just as long as:

1) You don't end your parry pushing the opponent's blade into your body (on or off-target)

2) gee, I think 1) pretty much takes care of everything.

So, if someone's attacking your quarte line, you may use a simple quarte parry, a circle-sixte parry, maybe a prime parry (quite popular), even an octave parry. The important thing is not to make a parry and stop half-way, thinking you did the wrong parry.

I see that a lot with beginning fencers. The attacker makes a nebulous attack to some vague area around the chest. Defender decides to use parry X and halfway through, decides parry Y is "pedagogically" correct. Stops parry X midway and starts doing parry Y (or worse yet, moves back to original position and then starts doing parry Y). No dice. Make your parry, stick with it and continue along.

Heck, if someone is attacking your quarte line and you make a big sweeping octave parry, chances are, your opponent isn't going to be able to disengage around that.

[The0ne]

Nick Evangelista would shoot you for that. . .

[jeff]

Originally posted by The0ne
Nick Evangelista would shoot you for that. . .

The only way he could get a hit on Edew

[Black Jeebus]

His books aren't that bad if you just remember the source when he starts ranting on modern fencing. The Art and Science has helped me with learning certain things thus far. Its more a matter of learning it in class then going back and reading something about it but remembering that my coach is the one teaching me not Evangelista. Its kind of like a text book that the teacher tells you needs revisions then tells you what the revisions are. Its basically correct.

[jBirch]

Starlightdust,

Another way to look at the definitions is to hold your blade perfectly level. Any attack where the opponent's blade is to the right side of your blade is inside, any attack where it's to the left of your blade is outside. Any attack that goes lower then your guard is lowline, any attack that goes above it is high line. This, of course, assumes that you're a lefty. If not, then reverse the process: attacks to the right side are outside, and left side are inside.

This is important in order to understand what TheOne was saying about contre-de-4 being a good idea when your opponent disengages around your 4 parry. Think about it. If your opponent changes to your outside line (remember, they are moving from the right side of your blade to the left) by going under your blade then they are now attacking in 6 even if they are now heading for your inside shoulder. Now that they are attacking in 6, counter-4 works.

If we raise our guard during this process and the opponent's point drops below ours, the opponent is actually attacking in 8, not 6! So you can see that a disengage around the bottom of the bell actually moves from 4, to 7, then 8, then back up to 6 and we can intercept it using any of the appropriate parries as it transitions through each of those positions. In fact, contre parries actually do that for us so they are good ideas to use against an opponent who disengages us. The reason contre-4 works is because it travels that exact same path, going from 4 to 7 to 8 to 6 but, finally, carries the opponent back to 4 where they started from. If we wanted to stop them during the disengage we could try a contre-six (which goes 6, 8, 7, 4, 6) but actually what we end up doing is a semi-circular parry from 4 to 6 to 7 'cause that's generally where we meet.

It's important to remember that, as you move your guard around, so too does 4, 6, 7 and 8 move.

Hope this helps.

[corinna2u]

starlightdust,

I took Evangelista's The Inner Game of Fencing, removed the ranting, removed the repetition, and removed inaccurate information for the modern competitive sport game. What was left? 20 8x11 pages with plenty of space on each page...that is out of approximately 300 pages.

The interesting thing...what was left was actually pretty well written stuff. My favorite:

'And there's no point in complaining. Your fencing works, or it doesn't work. Period.'

I like it, but I had to take it out of the ranting context that he was using.

People don't call him the Sandman for no reason.

[Aeric]

Some of his psychological aspects on the mind game of fencing are pretty interesting. Not the "works or doesn't" part, but the mental conditions during a bout like how to deal with anger and fear. I also sort of liked his philosophy on the differences between Foil and Epee, (just not the technicalities).

[BrianH]

In Nick Evangelista's book it is written:

"For instance, if your opponent attacks into the line of quarte, you may parry quarte or contre de sixte. If he attacks into the line of sixte, you may parry sixte or contre de quarte."



Hi, Starlightdust,

Good question. It shows that you are thinking about technique and learning the language. Admirable traits in a new fencer. Want to be in my class?

It depends on how close to your blade your opponent's blade is. If it is quite near yours, a contre de sixte (I teach it as counter six) works well, especially with opposition. It is also a wonderful epee move. If their blade is farther away from yours, quarte works well.

Keep your arm bent in the parry, retreat just the right distance, riposte and you have the touch.

BTW, for some of us, the citation of Nick's book sounds a little too biblical. Could you say something like, "Nick E. says..."?
Thanks,
BH

[starlightdust]

Originally posted by BrianH

Good question. It shows that you are thinking about technique and learning the language. Admirable traits in a new fencer. Want to be in my class?

When does your class begin? lol Oregon? That's about 3 days bus from here... I know I'm just beginning learning fencing, but still, I was thinking maybe after college traveling a little bit, to acquire different perspectives, different techniques, etc.

It depends on how close to your blade your opponent's blade is. If it is quite near yours, a contre de sixte (I teach it as counter six) works well, especially with opposition. It is also a wonderful epee move. If their blade is farther away from yours, quarte works well.

You do not take in consideration in which line the attack is being made? I've been reading all of the replies and this is getting really confusing! lol :P Maybe time will clear up matters... hehe

Thanks,
starlightdust

[achilleus]

Originally posted by starlightdust
You do not take in consideration in which line the attack is being made? I've been reading all of the replies and this is getting really confusing! lol :P Maybe time will clear up matters... hehe

Thanks,
starlightdust

During a bout, if I know that every time I attack to the 4 line my opponent will make a parry 4, it's very easy to hit my opponent.

A proper defense consists of variety to keep the opponent guessing.

That said, for now, learn the actions as your coach teaches them. And stop reading Nick E. It will only slow you down. If you are looking for a book to reenforce you teachings, pick up a book from a fencing store from someone more current.

I used to love Charles Selberg, Foil. Awesome book, great descriptions, and a great chapter on tactics.

[starlightdust]

Originally posted by achilleus
That said, for now, learn the actions as your coach teaches them. And stop reading Nick E. It will only slow you down.

You are right. I just want to learn everything so quickly. Too much theory reading Nick's book, and not enought practice... it confuses me! I'll have to take it a week at a time I guess.

[neevel]

Originally posted by corinna2u

The interesting thing...what was left was actually pretty well written stuff. My favorite:

'And there's no point in complaining. Your fencing works, or it doesn't work. Period.'

Given the nature of the majority of the ranting you cut, that statement coming from NE is absolutely hilarious.

-Dave

[Black Jeebus]

I read the Art and Science before classes started so that I might know something about fencing before plunging head-long into it. Fencing is however a sport best learned through doing, in my novice opinion. When I read many of the descriptions of various moves I couldn't quite figure out what he meant. However reviewing them after we had covered them in class most of my questions about what I had read were cleared up, and I could better picture what he was talking about.

[neevel]

One element that can be used in deciding between 4 and counter-6 is where on your target the incoming point is aimed at. If it's aimed towards the edge of the target on your leading shoulder, then 4 would sweep the point across your chest before clearing it-- counter-6 will clear the point quicker in this instance.

What sort of riposte you intend also influences your choice of parry. Even if the target-section being threatened makes 4 seem the best choice, it may be that you want to set up a different riposte than is readily possible from that parry. Suppose your opponent has a really quick, effective parry-and-counterriposte in the direct line from your parry 4. A counter-6, counter-8, or whatever else you might think of can allow a riposte which bypasses that defensive strength.

Between these sorts of considerations, and simply varying your actions to keep your opponent guessing, there's really no such thing as the "correct" parry for a given line. If it worked in a given situation, then it was the right parry.

-Dave