Fencing.Net - Your Guide to Fencing & Fencing Equipment

hscoach · 01-30-2004, 01:06 PM

Just a thought...why is it really necessary to wear one when you are fencing saber. I believe the full jacket lame protects you as much as the little nylon or cotton underarm protectors.

veeco · 01-30-2004, 01:15 PM

But it doesn't protect you as much as the 800N ones...

Besides, I am not sure that the lame material is as strong as cotton or nylon. I don't fence sabre, but anything I can do to protect myself, I'd be glad to do. Any additional layer you put on is one additional layer of protection.

edew · 01-30-2004, 01:17 PM

I regularly wear it for saber, even during practice bouting.

Peach · 01-30-2004, 01:18 PM

Point thrusts occur in sabre, and blades break. I'd rather wear one, and always do when I'm fencing.

R. Exnicios · 01-30-2004, 01:18 PM

It could save your life!

Dave · 01-30-2004, 01:26 PM

I have seen a point thrust in sabre catch on a fold in a lame and pass straight through with little effort. A lame really doesn't offer any protection against a broken blade (which happens quite a lot in sabre).

Plastrons are the way forwards, they are't there to stop bruises but to save your life when a blade breaks.

DHCJr · 01-30-2004, 01:33 PM

One thing that has not been mentioned about the underarm protector. Look where the seam is on the lame. Then look where the seam is on the jacket. That is the weakest point. Where are the seams on the underarm protector?

edew · 01-30-2004, 01:34 PM

I also find point thrusts in saber to be a bit more painful than in foil or epee. Maybe it's because of the expectation of receiving a cut instead of a thrust. I'm used to and am prepared for the thrust in foil or epee. I'm not in saber. Also, there's no button and no spring. Take what you will, that little spring and the relatively sizable button top do absorb some of the energy and spread it over a larger surface area. The saber tip ain't got either.

The0ne · 01-30-2004, 02:32 PM

Yeah, a plastron is great just for not getting bruises! And personally, an extra layer of protection sounds good to me.

Inquartata · 01-30-2004, 04:39 PM

Put it this way, a cup isn't "necessary", either. Let's just say that like a cup the plastron is highly advisable...not to mention required unless you want your club's USFA insurance to decline to pay off should there be an accident.

GGK · 01-30-2004, 05:16 PM

I've had saber tips go through the arm of my lame.
I've also had it go through a borrowed jacket when I was fencing dry saber.

klauver · 01-30-2004, 07:20 PM

DHCJr beat me to the point. The seams are the weak point in any garment. The plastron/underarm protector has solid material behind the seam of the jacket underarm.

The saber sleeves are sewn to the torso fabric just like a jecket.

hscoach · 01-31-2004, 09:42 AM

Still being devil's advocate. If everyone is so worried about the underarm protector why are they not worried about wearing a cup or some extra material protection for the crotch area? If a sword can go through a saber lame, FIE jacket and underarm protector ( and in women full chest protector and sports bra), can it not go through FIE knickers, and the little cotton crotch area of the jacket and your underwear?

Peach · 01-31-2004, 10:05 AM

I think there should be extra protection in the crotch for males. But I guess safety requirements are partly based on the possibility of death occurring, not just pain, embarrassment, and possible loss of fertility.

I know someone who took a broken sabre blade in the lung.

Prometheus · 01-31-2004, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hscoach
Still being devil's advocate. If everyone is so worried about the underarm protector why are they not worried about wearing a cup or some extra material protection for the crotch area? If a sword can go through a saber lame, FIE jacket and underarm protector ( and in women full chest protector and sports bra), can it not go through FIE knickers, and the little cotton crotch area of the jacket and your underwear?

The lame does not have any puncture requirements as far as I know, so it can be disregarded. Besides, the seam on the lamae lines up with the jacket, so a broken blade could without an astronomically rare event penetrate both garments at the seam. The purpose of the plastron is to protect the torso from a penetrating injury along the seam of the jacket.

Quote:

If a sword can go through a saber lame, FIE jacket and underarm protector...

It shouldn’t be able to. That is the point.

Quote:

can it not go through FIE knickers, and the little cotton crotch area of the jacket and your underwear?

jacket(800N) + Plastron (800N) = Two layers of 800N with the seams not lined up.

Jacket (800N) + Knickers(800N) = Two layers of 800N with the seams not lined up.

Since you shouldnt be able to penetrate the Jacket and Plastron directly, you shouldnt be able to penetrate the Jacket and knickers directly.

There is probably some remote risk of runing up the leg and still having enough force to blow through the fly of the knickers, but you could also get hit in the uprotected back of your head with a broken blade, or under the mask bib and over the jacket collar into the throat. Some risks are low enough to be acceptable.

There is at least one company I know of that sells Puncture rated undershorts (800N if i recall correctly) to provide a "pelvic plastron" again this is not required but it is available.

Besides,

Groin protection is commonly worn among the wise, regardless of whether it is technically requited by the rules. This probably more important to prevent soft tissue damage then penetrating injury. However, I would think, it should stop a broken blade as well.

Perhaps it should be mentioned that I have met people who fervently cast off groin protection. I have however never seen anyone with proper groin protection curled up in the fetal position on the ground for 10 minutes in the middle of a bout .(See the latter part of this thread (Link)) . Well, there was the ACL tare, but that’s not really pertinent.

As is often the case dister causes regulation. The current mask requirements were drawn after the Smirnov accidnet. I dont not want to be the posterchild for the new "groin protection clause."

As always, play at the level of risk that you are comfortable. But remember, you cant win back organs in a law suit.

damianip · 01-31-2004, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hscoach
Still being devil's advocate. If everyone is so worried about the underarm protector why are they not worried about wearing a cup or some extra material protection for the crotch area? If a sword can go through a saber lame, FIE jacket and underarm protector ( and in women full chest protector and sports bra), can it not go through FIE knickers, and the little cotton crotch area of the jacket and your underwear?

Couple of thoughts:

Your crotch is not 2 inches from your heart or 1/2 an inch from your lungs.

Whereas, at the deepest part of the armpit, if a blade gets between the ribs, it's a short trip to the lungs and then the heart. As "leg crossing" a concept a penetrating wound to the scrotum may be for many of us, it's not as likely to be as fatal as a penetrating wound of the armpit.

That said, cups are easily purchased, and Allstar/Uhlmann offers 800N underwear (http://www.fechtsport-langenkamp.de/...dia/108134.jpg)

Personally, I wear a cup and a plastron when fencing (epee: EVERTHING is a target). My son eschews the cup (hmmm, maybe no grandkids for me).

Paolo

JAySE SUiCiDE · 01-31-2004, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hscoach
Still being devil's advocate. If everyone is so worried about the underarm protector why are they not worried about wearing a cup or some extra material protection for the crotch area? If a sword can go through a saber lame, FIE jacket and underarm protector ( and in women full chest protector and sports bra), can it not go through FIE knickers, and the little cotton crotch area of the jacket and your underwear?

interesting cup checks..

director: "cup check!"
*thwack* "you're good!"
*thwack* "you're good!"
*no thwack* "ummm..yellow card.."

ouch

hell, i'm a girl, and there have been some shots during fencing that have made me want to get a cup

one made for women, that is..and there's nothing "there" really as sensitive as "there" on a guy..

right..

~Jes

klauver · 02-01-2004, 02:21 AM

I have to imagine that if the case that several men have described where a foil tip imbedded in their thigh and then sprang up in to the groin would be pretty painful regardless of the gender!

JAySE SUiCiDE · 02-01-2004, 08:25 PM

this is true. though i've never had it happen to me, so i dont know..though if hurts more than getting hit straight on, then ouch. might take the full 10 minute break..

geez..it hurt when i got hit there in foil, imagine epee..

now im really happy im not a guy!

~Jes

haroldbuck · 02-01-2004, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hscoach
Still being devil's advocate. If everyone is so worried about the underarm protector why are they not worried about wearing a cup or some extra material protection for the crotch area? If a sword can go through a saber lame, FIE jacket and underarm protector ( and in women full chest protector and sports bra), can it not go through FIE knickers, and the little cotton crotch area of the jacket and your underwear?

If the safety requirements were only about preventing death, then why do women have to wear breast protectors?

I mean, really, if you're only going to require one or the other of a cup for men or BPs for women, which would you require? I have no problem with requiring both, but I think it's incredibly sexist to require BPs for women and nothing for men.

And, true, BPs might help prevent a blade going through your lung, but then why would they only be required for women?