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Inquartata · 01-29-2004, 09:42 PM

At the last NAC, in Vet MS, we were told by some of the referees that the minute break at 5 ( in the DEs ) had been eliminated. At DITD the word didn't seem to have made it to all of the refs, including some of the top national ones. And there's been nothing about it from the USFA that I've been able to find---big surprise.

Does anyone have the official scoop on this?

Peach · 01-29-2004, 10:30 PM

Getting rid of the one-minute break in Veterans sabre was a decision by a member of the Palm Springs bout committee because he couldn't find anything in writing mandating it (though it was enforced for the Vet WS the day before). Even though it is in force at the World Veterans Championships, there is nothing published by the USFA requiring it in US events, merely the force of custom. So I asked around, and was told by a couple of officials that the Veterans Committee should be responsible for coming up with that written requirement, which may or may not be the case (our committee, like many of the USFA committees, has very little actual power though it does make some recommendations which are adopted). I raised the topic at the Veterans Committee meeting in Palm Springs that evening, and the chair of the committee said he would check with USFA officials about the situation.

Or, to put it more succinctly, the official scoop at this point is nobody knows. I'll let you know when I find out.

Inquartata · 01-30-2004, 12:16 AM

Thanks, Peach.

MikeHarm · 01-30-2004, 10:12 AM

So if this goes into effect would they be able to axe the minute break's for all three weapons or just sabre?

DanInMI · 01-30-2004, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Peach
Getting rid of the one-minute break in Veterans sabre was a decision by a member of the Palm Springs bout committee because he couldn't find anything in writing mandating it (though it was enforced for the Vet WS the day before). Even though it is in force at the World Veterans Championships, there is nothing published by the USFA requiring it in US events, merely the force of custom. So I asked around, and was told by a couple of officials that the Veterans Committee should be responsible for coming up with that written requirement, which may or may not be the case (our committee, like many of the USFA committees, has very little actual power though it does make some recommendations which are adopted). I raised the topic at the Veterans Committee meeting in Palm Springs that evening, and the chair of the committee said he would check with USFA officials about the situation.

Or, to put it more succinctly, the official scoop at this point is nobody knows. I'll let you know when I find out.

Geeze. Didn't someone on this board recently suggest that directors are blatently disregarding the rulebook?

O.23 "The direct elimination bouts are for 15 touches, maximum 9 minutes, divided into three periods of 3 minutes, with a one minute rest between each round. During this rest a person, named before the bout, may have access to the fencer."

This is from "General Rules for direct Elimination" for all three weapons.

GreenDot · 01-30-2004, 11:15 AM

I have yet to see a saber bout that lasts for 3 minutes.

-James

kalivor · 01-30-2004, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DanInMI
Geeze. Didn't someone on this board recently suggest that directors are blatently disregarding the rulebook?

O.23 "The direct elimination bouts are for 15 touches, maximum 9 minutes, divided into three periods of 3 minutes, with a one minute rest between each round. During this rest a person, named before the bout, may have access to the fencer."

This is from "General Rules for direct Elimination" for all three weapons.

Sabre bouts never last three minutes, though, so that first first one-minute break never comes. To compensate for it, they've introduced a break when a certain number of points have been accumulated (in sabre only).

Tireur · 01-30-2004, 11:20 AM

Quote:

I have yet to see a saber bout that lasts for 3 minutes.

Say what??????????

oiuyt · 01-30-2004, 11:27 AM

It's actually not the break that's in question. I'm sure that every ref would allow the minute break at the end of the first period regardless of weapon or age group. What's at question is when the first period ends in sabre. Obviously if 3 minutes expired (assuming the ref were even bothering to time the bout) there would be a break. In a 15-touch DE sabre now ends the first period after one fencer has reached 8 touches.

So what happens in a 10 touch DE bout? Well, it COULD be viewed as a DE and still end the period after 8, although this would be kind of silly. A better solution is to similarly have the break be halfway through the bout (and this, of course is where the break at 5 comes from). As mentioned by Peach, the published format for the NAC did not mention any such break in the description of the DE bouts, and, therefore, it was not used in MS (mostly, some refs had gotten out to their strips before the FOC made the ruling and were not recalled, some of those refs gave a break, others did not). The issue hadn't been officially raised with the FOC during the previous day (Vet WS) and so there was no ruling at that time. As such I'm fairly certain that there were some refs allowing a break and others not allowing one.

Whether it's the Veteran's Committee or the HPC that writes the format documents for national-level vet events, clearly this has been an oversight that should be corrected. Which is officially in charge of the issue? I'm sure I don't know. Write to them both and try to get the language added to the formats in time for Arlington.

-B :)

Tireur · 01-30-2004, 11:34 AM

Quote:

I have yet to see a saber bout that lasts for 3 minutes.

Quote:

Say what??????????

Actually, I guess I shouldn't say this. Some people will think I only thought they lasted 3 minutes.......

Even back in the olden days when we fenced for 5 minutes, I probably didn't really see that either.

DanInMI · 01-30-2004, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tireur
Say what??????????

I think that was humor , Tireur.

Peach · 01-30-2004, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oiuyt

Whether it's the Veteran's Committee or the HPC that writes the format documents for national-level vet events, clearly this has been an oversight that should be corrected. Which is officially in charge of the issue? I'm sure I don't know. Write to them both and try to get the language added to the formats in time for Arlington.

-B

Brad - as I said, the Veteran's Committee is already aware of this, and I'm on that committee. No need to write us. Dunno if the HPC is aware of it yet.

Inquartata · 01-30-2004, 04:56 PM

Typical sabre DE lasts about 45 seconds elapsed fencing time these days. Yeah, things were a bit more sedately pace in "the olde days", and bouts lasted longer. Things have changed...)

DaninMI, Veteran DEs are only fence to 10 touches, so clearly the rule you cite is not applicable.

Peach · 01-30-2004, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DanInMI
Geeze. Didn't someone on this board recently suggest that directors are blatently disregarding the rulebook?

O.23 "The direct elimination bouts are for 15 touches, maximum 9 minutes, divided into three periods of 3 minutes, with a one minute rest between each round. During this rest a person, named before the bout, may have access to the fencer."

This is from "General Rules for direct Elimination" for all three weapons.

No, this is a case in which referees are enforcing the rule book in a more up-to-date version. Amendments are introduced and adopted officially which supplement the rule book, and this is one of them. In 15-touch bouts in sabre, there is a one-minute break when one competitor accumulates 8 points.

The Veterans competition DEs are 10 touches, officially, from the World Veterans competition on down, and when the 8-touch rule was introduced a similar 5-touch rule was adopted for those DEs in the World Veterans competition. Unlike the 8-touch rule, this rule was apparently not officially adopted by the USFA for its veteran competitions and was not published in the newsletter, so even though it is an official FIE rule it is, apparently, not yet a USFA rule.

Peach · 01-30-2004, 05:23 PM

Now, whether I like the 5-touch rule or not is a different matter. I don't win as many DEs when their coaches get a chance to tell them what to do.

DanInMI · 01-31-2004, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Peach
No, this is a case in which referees are enforcing the rule book in a more up-to-date version. Amendments are introduced and adopted officially which supplement the rule book, and this is one of them. In 15-touch bouts in sabre, there is a one-minute break when one competitor accumulates 8 points.

The Veterans competition DEs are 10 touches, officially, from the World Veterans competition on down, and when the 8-touch rule was introduced a similar 5-touch rule was adopted for those DEs in the World Veterans competition. Unlike the 8-touch rule, this rule was apparently not officially adopted by the USFA for its veteran competitions and was not published in the newsletter, so even though it is an official FIE rule it is, apparently, not yet a USFA rule.

I see that....I stand corrected.