Arh!!!!!!!!! I've been holding the french foil wrong for two years!!!!

[edew]

When I began fencing, I did not have a coach per se. There were other fencers, and they offered suggestions and explanations, as well as led drills and exercises.

I did not receive one-on-one lessons from a coach until my fifth or sixth year in fencing. Unless you are living in a castle prison off the Atlantic coast, there should be other people you are fencing with. You can talk and practice with them. It's better than reading a book on how to do it.

The last thing I would do is reference a book on how to fence.

[D'Artagnan1673]

There are a few other fencers on this remote island, that is also how I learned how to fence. However, it is nice to have a true coach to have credintials to back up what is being taught. For the most part, everything that I've learned about fencing has been from books, personal experience, and the core of veterens teaching me how to fence.

It just reminds me of WWI air combat. Students get only enough training to get them into the air. They are then shipped off to a squadron in France. Most will "die" or quit early (they do at my club). Those who survive the early "battles" may become veterens themselves one of these days. My club primarily has a small core of about 5 to 6 people plus 4 or 5 rookies. We have many promising new fencers, but in the past, most rookies have quit fencing after a few months. I am sure that that is the same all around the country. I myself loose site of fencing every once and a while and drift off for a few weeks or months.

Well, only time will tell what happends.

[swordsen]

Sounds like someone thre needs to take a week in the summer and go to the coach's college and take the level one foil.
Be the coach....

[D'Artagnan1673]

Actually, I've been considering that.

One of the other members of our club has been working on that for about a year. I give some basic lessons at my club. I mainly try to get the new people to think about what they are doing rather than just fence like a machine. I wouldn't mind coaching more often. I find that it grounds me more in my technique, thereby improving my fencing.

[MikeHarm]

I think the strength argument as a reason for not using a french grip is a poor one. Your wrist/hand strength isn't set in stone, there are many ways to make your hand stronger such as exercises with jars of water, eagle claw stretchers, exer-putty, etc that would negate any disadvantage you might have if you put some work into it.

[ 04-06-2002: Message edited by: MikeHarm ]</p>

[Bebop and Rocksteady]

[quote]Originally posted by Lordy:
<strong>I am in total agreement with Edew. And to Bebop's verasimilar remark about fencer's outside the U.S. using the french, there isn't even one internationally rated FRENCHMAN who uses the french grip for foil! Not one! If you asked Guyart, Ferrari or Boidin why they don't use French, because after all, they are French, they would laugh in your face, but not before they spit on you, as the French are likened to do....</strong><hr></blockquote>

You have some serious issues. Since when did this become a personal attack?

[The Crazy Wacker]

Umm, I dunno if i hold it right, but my sword looks like this


::Top Finger::
---------------
| |
| |
---------------
::Bottom Finger::


Might seem hard to understand, but thats how I do it... <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[The Crazy Wacker]

ARGH MY PICTURE DOESN'T LOOK RIGHT!!

Anyways, i hold it at the skinny part closest to the bell


Screw it, I'll stick with pistol... <img src="graemlins/kane2.gif" border="0" alt="[Camo]" /> <img src="graemlins/evil3.gif" border="0" alt="[Evil 2]" /> <img src="graemlins/evild.gif" border="0" alt="[Evil]" /> <img src="graemlins/jester.gif" border="0" alt="[Jester]" /> <img src="graemlins/dunce.gif" border="0" alt="[Dunce]" /> <img src="graemlins/crap.gif" border="0" alt="[Crap]" /> <img src="graemlins/blah.gif" border="0" alt="[Blah]" />

[shyHeidi]

Um... I didn't get the impression that it ever was a personal attack in the first place.
Anyway, bebop, have you tried the forums on <a href="http://www.fencingsucks.com" target="_blank">fencingsucks.com</a>? I think perhaps they'd be more suited to you there. ...Maybe. You should check it out.
<img src="graemlins/blah.gif" border="0" alt="[Blah]" />

[shyHeidi]

Wait, so now people are saying you are supposed to hold a french grip on the skinny sides rather than the thick ones? ::scratches head:: Um..
Okay, can I have some more opinions, then, which side, skinny or wide?
I used to hold it on the skinny sides, then I saw a pic that showed quite clearly that the wide sides were being used, so I switched around 2 months ago. Now I'm used to it, which way is it supposed to be, though?
<img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[WJM]

you know, it says something when you read posts and when the words "castle prison off the atlantic coast" scroll by you think "that sounds rather nice..."

I was taught and trained on french grips. I was trained as an assistant coach in the same program in french. I fenced with french for nearly 10 years. I run a fairly big fencing program (currently this spring session, including both beginners and more advanced club members total of about 150-160 people) which is always poor and uses french grips. No, this isn't a statement that french grips are wonderful. I simply used them because that's what was handed to me the first day, and I in turn handed them to others because I was taught that way. Over time, I've messed with this "sacred rule" that beginners should start with french grips. Know what? doesn't make a dern bit of difference. If I had the money, I'd convert all the french grips in the club to pistol. I switched about 5-6 years ago, went through about 3 months of hand pain, been happy ever since. Fact of the matter is, you can move a pistol faster, due to the muscle groups involved. Yes, it can cause problems in point control, but that's what practice is for. The one thing I will say for french is that you don't need different sizes of grip for students, and holding the french correctly doesn't let over eager students with muscles wack the weapons to pieces too much. On the other hand, whatever minor point control they gain in using the french is completely lost in the difficulty in holding the grip correctly and keeping the pommel in the right positions. I probably waste a lot of time fixing that too, when I should be fixing something else. But with a french grip, a beginner with the grip/pommel out of position is almost completely useless. There's a reason the pistol is used instead of the french in foil, and it doesn't have everything to do with the flick, either. I add though that when you give a lot of lessons during a day, sometimes it's a lot more confortable to use a french grip held "incorrectly". But, if you're good enough to give lessons, then you know how to present the blade well if you have a broomstick for a weapon, I guess In epee, angulation is made a lot easier with a pistol as well. The only action I think is easier by far with a french is some of the more acute angulations to the lower hand or wrist. To my mind, it doesn't make up for the difference. I'm suprised people haven't been inventing more grips. The Zik's are pretty nice, I think, although I still prefer a visconti myself.

[WJM]

as to the proper grip of the french, wide side. Examine the grip, it should (usually) have a bump or curve in the grip. That curve goes into the palm of the hand. more important is the alignment of the pommel along the wrist. This requires the back three fingers be holding the grip with just the fingertips, since anything more will cause the grip to stray away from the line of your arm.

Or just use a pistol grip correctly and practice your control over it and call it a day.

[The Crazy Wacker]

[quote]Originally posted by shyHeidi:
<strong>Wait, so now people are saying you are supposed to hold a french grip on the skinny sides rather than the thick ones? ::scratches head:: Um..
Okay, can I have some more opinions, then, which side, skinny or wide?
I used to hold it on the skinny sides, then I saw a pic that showed quite clearly that the wide sides were being used, so I switched around 2 months ago. Now I'm used to it, which way is it supposed to be, though?
</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think you can do either one. I Have 2 coaches/teachers at my club, and one was taught the french style, the other, was modern. The french guy holds his with his palm up, and his thumb at 3 O'Clock, the other holds his with his thumb at 12 O'Clock... Understand? 12 being up, 3 being right, 6 being down, 9 being left. Either way, there tips still bend downwards.

[swordsen]

thumb on top of the wide part, index finger beneath it. the curve in the handle fits nicely against the ball of your thumb.
the other fingers lightly support the blade. That's how I hold the french.

[D'Artagnan1673]

[quote]Originally posted by shyHeidi:
<strong>Wait, so now people are saying you are supposed to hold a french grip on the skinny sides rather than the thick ones? ::scratches head:: Um..
Okay, can I have some more opinions, then, which side, skinny or wide?
I used to hold it on the skinny sides, then I saw a pic that showed quite clearly that the wide sides were being used, so I switched around 2 months ago. Now I'm used to it, which way is it supposed to be, though?
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Heidi,

Nevermind my silly post. The I just misread the book, and the picutre that corresponds is wrong. I tried holding the french on the skinny part the other day and landed flat on most every touch I made. Keep holding it on the thick part.

[The Crazy Wacker]

If it makes it easier... Just hold the sword however you want to. Then everyones hands are happy

[D'Artagnan1673]

I'll stick with the way I have always held it. I am sure that I could get used to the other way, but why go through all the trouble when the way I hold the weapon is fine as is.

[edew]

I was just playing with a french grip (epee, really, but that's not relevant) today and realized that in order for D'Artagnan to have held the french grip wrong, not only would he be holding it wrong, he would have to be holding an opposite hand's grip, or otherwise the fit would be miserably wrong.

[ScorpionDevil]

I've been holding the french grip wrong for as long as I've been fencing. My coach wanted me to hold it right, but I just can't seem to change the way I hold it. Now I had improved a bit on how I hold it, but it's still wrong.
I like how I hold it, I don't think I will ever be able to change to the correct form (It doesnt feel right at all!) <img src="graemlins/evild.gif" border="0" alt="[Evil]" />

[D'Artagnan1673]

Edew,

It was the miserably wrong grip then that I was using. I only used it for about half a 5 touch bout before I fully realized that it was dead wrong. Most every touch was landing flat even with a good 3 inch bend.