Fencing.Net - Your Guide to Fencing & Fencing Equipment

shyHeidi · 04-03-2002, 11:33 PM

How long is it supposed to take to get sentiment du fer, anyway? I don't think it says anywhere that I've read... just says that you get a better feeling for the blade and etc...
I've been wondering, because that's my main reason for using the french, I have other reasons but that's the main one. ... Anyhow, some day I want to be able to try all the different grips like normal people do, don't want to limit myself to being stuck with french without even trying other stuff... Just wondering how long I'd have to wait...
Not trying to be impatient or anything.
... just wondering...
Laa laa laa... Ho hum... waiting... ::tick tock, tick tock, tick tock, tick tock::
Laa laa laaa...
::sigh::

edew · 04-03-2002, 11:46 PM

[delete this attempt at posting]

[ 04-04-2002: Message edited by: edew ]

edew · 04-03-2002, 11:53 PM

[quote]Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673:
[QB[...]

Now I also disagree with Lordy about the French being silly. However, I will use a little grace and eloquence in my responce rather than a base insult.

The French grip does give you a very good feeling for the blade or sentiment de fer Also, with the French grip, you loose all the power that you get with the pistols, forcing you to consider other elements of your game. I am not saying that you can't use the others with a pistol, but it is easier not too. Grace and form flow with the French grip. Also, I think it is rather fun to fence French in a tournament, provided they don't mop you off the strip. It gets people thinking.[/QB]<hr></blockquote>

All I can say is, "Emperor's new clothes."

The french grip is the emperor's new clothes. People buy into the tripe that the french grip will give you "better feel" or whatever. Look, each grip gives you a different, non-comparable feel. The question is which grip will give you the opportunity to hit a large repertoire of attacks, will give you the opportunity to make different and quick parries.

Of the hundreds of thousands of foilists around the world, guess how many use the french grip, compared to various sorts of pistolgrips. The number of french grip users is miniscule and there's a reason: when the rubber meets the road, fencers will use the grip that will work, and that grip isn't going to be the french grip in the vast, vast majority of cases. When success is on the line, that emperor's new clothes is seen as nothing.

So, if you want to use the french grip, fine. Go right ahead. I don't begruge you your choice anymore than if you chose to use the German grip or the Russian grip or the Visconti or the American or the Belgian or the Cetrulo or the Rambeau or whatever. But please, don't think you can BS the rest of us by claiming that the french grip gives the user a better feel. Emperor's new clothes, buddy. Emperor's new clothes.

achilleus · 04-04-2002, 08:08 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Scaramouche:
I still don't see how practicing with one grip and competing with another truly affects your fencing ability. I'd think fencing French, which is harder, in practice would have no bearing on the fact that you use a pistol in tournaments, which is the easier grip of the two

<hr></blockquote>

Scaramouche,

Did you not read my previous post, or do you just believe any word of it?

I'm curious, because the reason I gave is a pretty compelling reason.

If you don't think so, then what about the fact that none of the top fencers use one grip in practice and a different one in competition? Do results not speak for themselves?

Bebop and Rocksteady · 04-04-2002, 10:58 AM

[quote]Originally posted by edew:

Of the hundreds of thousands of foilists around the world, guess how many use the french grip, compared to various sorts of pistolgrips. The number of french grip users is miniscule and there's a reason: when the rubber meets the road, fencers will use the grip that will work, and that grip isn't going to be the french grip in the vast, vast majority of cases. When success is on the line, that emperor's new clothes is seen as nothing.

Maybe the pistol grip is the most popular here in the US. But there are still a lot of fencers who use the french, which is certainly more popular in other countries.
<hr></blockquote>

Insulting Lordy? That wasn't me. I swear, Craig switched my 'post' button with 'post random crap'

Bebop and Rocksteady · 04-04-2002, 11:09 AM

[quote]Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673:
I think Lordy is on the right track. Bebop comes in and just starst blasting everything in site expoudning like an expert.

And I said I was sorry for it. Now leave me the hell alone about it.

Now I did the same thing but shut up pretty quickly when I realized that other people actually have opinions. Bebeop on the other hand posts a whiny thread about how come we all just can't get along and then goes and insults Lordy.

Maybe you didn't read his other posts. If anyone's ignoring other people's opinions, it's him. And I wasn't insulting him. I was merely telling him to try out other things before making assumptions.
<hr></blockquote>

The only thing I dislike in fencing are things I've already tried. Now leave me the hell alone.

edew · 04-04-2002, 12:08 PM

Bebop (I guess) added this to my quote (so it's not ME who stated this:
[quote]Maybe the pistol grip is the most popular here in the US. But there are still a lot of fencers who use the french, which is certainly more popular in other countries.
<hr></blockquote>

Well, that's patently false. I know for a fact, when I visited Germany, that the french grip is nonexistent. No fencer, no coach ever use the french grip. Nor the italian. (They don't use the German grip, though, preferring either the visconti or the belgian.) Ok, I'm speaking about foil, as some German epeeists do use the french grip. I even watched a beginning fencer, complete first-day beginning fencer, drill and take lessons with a visconti grip.

Take a look at the 2001 World Championships tape. Not one of the foilists in the men's or women's individual or team events shown used a french grip. Not a one.

So, don't bother making assertions that you can't prove, especially since it's patently false.

Sciurus Rex · 04-04-2002, 12:53 PM

I find that orthopedic grips useful because they eliminate niggling subconscious concern about losing the weapon in combat. For all the fluffery about French grip sensitivity ("ribbed for her pleasure!"), there's something of a paradox of relaxed fingertip control that a pistol grip is able to avoid.

And I don't see very many serious fencers using traditional Frnech grips, either. If a product works, the market will naturally move it into a dominant position.

("Emperor's new clothes?" ... I just don't see it.)

Pommel · 04-04-2002, 01:08 PM

Quote from Lochinvar:

[quote]
Bebop and Rocksteady:

Don't let Lordy get to you.
He's a New York fencer. They're all like that.
Ignore it.

<hr></blockquote>

Do you care to elaborate on what's wrong with New York fencers?

[ 04-04-2002: Message edited by: Pommel ]

Pommel · 04-04-2002, 01:10 PM

I'm sorry, it looks like that quote was taken from Bebop and Rocksteady, but it isn't. The post was by Lochinvar. My apologies to the former.

D'Artagnan1673 · 04-04-2002, 01:20 PM

I've been experimenting with different types of french grips and have come to the following conclusion.

No matter what type of French you use, be it rubber, leather or plastic, wrapping it in Wilson tennis racket tape gives the best feel of anything I've ever held. It even works better with a Santelli 3 Weapon leather glove. In my opinion, they are much better than even the Uhlmann gloves. I own both a Santelli and Uhlmann glove and find that I have a better feel for the weapon with a Santelli.

D'Artagnan1673 · 04-04-2002, 01:26 PM

Edew,

In my limited experience, I prefer my "Emperor's New Clothes" to the new order any day.

As scurios said , [quote]And I don't see very many serious fencers using traditional Frnech grips, either. If a product works, the market will naturally move it into a dominant position.

<hr></blockquote>

That is a very good point. There is nothiing I can say that will prove that statement wrong, nor would I try to if I didn't believe in the validity of my own. Still, I personally prefer the feel of the French by far. I've tried a few pistols and see no reason to switch to them. The French works well with my style, so why change?

Sorry, Bebop. You just seem to come off very harsh. I hope I don't come off harsh with every post??? <img src="graemlins/dunce.gif" border="0" alt="[Dunce]" />

edew · 04-04-2002, 01:47 PM

[quote]Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673:
Edew,

In my limited experience, I prefer my "Emperor's New Clothes" to the new order any day.

As scurios said ,

That is a very good point. There is nothiing I can say that will prove that statement wrong, nor would I try to if I didn't believe in the validity of my own. Still, I personally prefer the feel of the French by far. I've tried a few pistols and see no reason to switch to them. The French works well with my style, so why change?

Sorry, Bebop. You just seem to come off very harsh. I hope I don't come off harsh with every post??? <img src="graemlins/dunce.gif" border="0" alt="[Dunce]" /> <hr></blockquote>

Didn't I post something to the effect that I don't begruge anyone's choice of grip(s)? I'm just stating the fact that the best foil fencers use pistolgrips and use them exclusively in training and competition. That you, or anyone, claim that you have a "better feel" is more of a mental delusion than from experience. I used to hate the visconti. I used to, and still do, hate the belgian. But I use the visconti exclusively now. It all takes continuous use of the grip. How long? I would say three months of continuous use before one can be accustomed to its idiosyncracies. You need to develop calluses and muscle tone in places you never had to use a grip properly. Including the french grip.

Lordy · 04-04-2002, 05:32 PM

I am in total agreement with Edew. And to Bebop's verasimilar remark about fencer's outside the U.S. using the french, there isn't even one internationally rated FRENCHMAN who uses the french grip for foil! Not one! If you asked Guyart, Ferrari or Boidin why they don't use French, because after all, they are French, they would laugh in your face, but not before they spit on you, as the French are likened to do....

Flying Phil · 04-04-2002, 06:12 PM

Gee, Dart...you sound like a classical masterpiece...how many tournaments have you fenced?

swordsen · 04-04-2002, 08:22 PM

I confess I too prefer to fence with a french grip. At least untill I managed to injure my index finger to the point where I couldn't do it right any more. (even worse, when I didn't use a french I'd use an Italian grip just to watch people boggle at tournaments)I never found a pistol/orthopedic grip that felt comfortable to use. I tried them and just didn't like them. In fact I still don't like them but hey, life goes on and I'll adapt. It is kind of amusing to watch people do doubletakes now when they see my weapons after all these years.
Fence with what feels good to you and what fits your style. Have fun, No whining allowed. (Actually if whining were banned the message volume would go way down.......)

As for Nick E. His books aren't much more close minded than others. But he has the added disadvantage of having somehow managed to become editor of the Veteren's Fencing Quarterly which he is useing to further his crusade against all things modern in fencing. It is a vastly annoying misuse of what could be a good magazine.

[ 04-05-2002: Message edited by: swordsen ]

[ 04-05-2002: Message edited by: swordsen ]

latenight · 04-05-2002, 11:53 AM

I think the real point to be taken out of this is that you can't learn to fence from a book. You need a competant coach. Books augment training, not vice versa.

D'Artagnan1673 · 04-05-2002, 11:57 AM

Sadly, if you don't have a coach, then books are all that you have.

latenight · 04-05-2002, 12:01 PM

Surely there must be a coach somewhere in SE Texas?

I say this honestly and I'm not trying to be mean, learning from a book is no replacement for a coach, especially when you first start out

D'Artagnan1673 · 04-05-2002, 12:36 PM

Well, there is one. He's our coach in fact, but he hasn't been coming for the past few months. I gave up fencing for a while when he stopped showing up. I got back into it because I missed fencing too much. I really wish I weren't exagerating when I said I don't have a coach. I've been back into fencing for 2 months now, and he's shown up once, and that was only to chat for 10 minutes and then he left.