Italian grip and martingale

[MyraTrue]

I'm not sure where I was told, or read, that it was now illegal to martingale (tie to the wrist) an Italian grip... and now the debate has come up within my club. Some members are saying its illegal if you do NOT martingale. I could have it backward, being that my memory on this is foggy. And its rare (at least around here) to find someone fencing with an Italian.

Does anyone know the rules? The only one I could find that MIGHT relate to martingaling was the rule (ack, no book!) saying a grip must not have anything that assists a person in throwing the weapon.

I'd appreciate any input, being that I'm curious.

-Myra

[DHCJr]

The martingale is allowed, not required. I would look at T.16 and M.4.6. What are 'devices or attachments'? The Martingale is considered an attachment and by straping it on, you have fixed the position of the hand. As long as it meets the 2 cm rule.

As you can see by the rule, it does not specify Italian. Is a Martingale legal with other handles? I'll leave that question with all of you to ponder.

[MyraTrue]

oh, excellent! Thank you!

For the fencer's sake, I'm glad it isn't illegal, and that answers my question as well.

[damianip]

Originally posted by DHCJr
The martingale is allowed, not required. I would look at T.16 and M.4.6. What are 'devices or attachments'? The Martingale is considered an attachment and by straping it on, you have fixed the position of the hand. As long as it meets the 2 cm rule.

As you can see by the rule, it does not specify Italian. Is a Martingale legal with other handles? I'll leave that question with all of you to ponder.

Assuming that when we say "martingale" we mean wrist strap, I believe that it's legal with any grip except the French.

If we mean retaining loop, then it's OK even with the French, although its actual purpose has been supplanted by the use of the body cord.

If I'm wrong, and I can use a wrist strap with a French, then I will commence with the use of one immediately as it will confer an unfair advantage of both strength and reach!!!!

Paolo

[MyraTrue]

Actually, he's using ribbon, but still, tied down to the wrist.

Though, I figure if you could do it with a French, it WOULD give reach and strength. One of the failings I've encountered in a French when people try to pommel (or sometimes simply the way they hold it) is that it can be beat from their hand. Strapped down in "pommeling" distance could work out well for someone.

[DHCJr]

Originally posted by damianip

If I'm wrong, and I can use a wrist strap with a French, then I will commence with the use of one immediately as it will confer an unfair advantage of both strength and reach!!!!
Paolo

You did not read the quote you posted to well. Read it again and not "2 cm"

[damianip]

Originally posted by DHCJr
You did not read the quote you posted to well. Read it again and not "2 cm"

Right, so, unfortunately, I'm correct and there will be no advantage for me.

It's not the 2cm. rule that's the issue here. Despite the fact that it's now fixed, it doesn't determine and fix one position only for the hand on the grip. (subparagraph "b" of m4.6))

But, I knew this: it was merely wishful thinking.

If it wasn't for that rule, then I could have a glove with a velcro closure across the fingers and palm, giving me the legendary "mano di ferro" with no exertion whatsoever. But, alas, no dice, I'm sure someone already tried this, and that's why we have the rule.

Paolo

[piedi_veloci]

I've fenced epee with a french grip for nearly 2 years now, though my heart truely lies with my italian epee. Though my fencing master, has many a times directed a fair deal of scorn my way about it, having told me that the FIE changed the rules in 1993 prohibiting the use of a wrist-strap which inhibits the flexation of the arm in strictly forbidden now in competitive fencing. Just thought you'd like to know.

[DHCJr]

That is news to be. Can he tell you the rule.

Actually, there used to be a rule REQUIRING wrist straps for certain competitons (non-electric). The FIE did drop the requirement in 93, but when was the last time the FIE had a non-electric tournament.

In fact you should look at M.6. The device or attachment they are talking about can be a strap. It is the reason, that of all the handles, the 'French' handle can not use a strap, because it could be used to hold the weapon in place while posting.

[piedi_veloci]

I am not aware of which rule by which it is affected, but those words are straight from his mouth. I will try and find out from him, though he probably won't give me a straight answer...

[ChrisFrench]

That is news to be. Can he tell you the rule.

Actually, there used to be a rule REQUIRING wrist straps for certain competitons (non-electric). The FIE did drop the requirement in 93, but when was the last time the FIE had a non-electric tournament.

In fact you should look at M.6. The device or attachment they are talking about can be a strap. It is the reason, that of all the handles, the 'French' handle can not use a strap, because it could be used to hold the weapon in place while posting.

Who would object to using a wrist strap with a French grip, if the fencer was not using posting? It would be following the 2 cm rule.

[DHCJr]

Who would object to using a wrist strap with a French grip, if the fencer was not using posting? It would be following the 2 cm rule.

A referee that knows the rules. Look at M.4.6. The wrist strap is an attachment, therefore it must fix the hand in one position only. You could strap it so the thumb is 2cm or 1 cm or 1/2 cm. A pistol grip that fixed the hand 2cm for a fencer would be legal, because it wouldn't fix it at another length.

[ChrisFrench]

Donald, thanks for the clarification. That is helpful.

I do not want to beat this point to death, but consider a fencer with large hands using a small pistol grip. The attachments would easily allow a 0 cm distance, but also a 1/2, 1 or 2 cm thumb position. A fencer with a small hand and a large Russian, I suppose could collide with the top post and not be able to reach, leaving more than 2 cm for the thumb. This would not be a legal grip for that fencer. So, the first fencer would be legal and would be able to change his grip, between 0 and 2 cm during fencing, as long as he did not change during the execution of an attack. This may be a stretch, but I am NOT trying to be ridiculous here. The first fencer would not be obligated to fence with his thumb up against the guard at all times.

[DHCJr]

Donald, thanks for the clarification. That is helpful.

I do not want to beat this point to death, but consider a fencer with large hands using a small pistol grip. The attachments would easily allow a 0 cm distance, but also a 1/2, 1 or 2 cm thumb position. A fencer with a small hand and a large Russian, I suppose could collide with the top post and not be able to reach, leaving more than 2 cm for the thumb. This would not be a legal grip for that fencer. So, the first fencer would be legal and would be able to change his grip, between 0 and 2 cm during fencing, as long as he did not change during the execution of an attack. This may be a stretch, but I am NOT trying to be ridiculous here. The first fencer would not be obligated to fence with his thumb up against the guard at all times.

You have me confused. Are you stating one pistol-grip handle and one fencer being able to hold the handle in different difference thumb position or one handle and different fencers would have different difference thumb position. If it is the former, I don't understand. His hand would be fixed. He could move his thumb around maybe scrunch it up, but so what. If it is the latter, then there is no problem. Each fencer would have their hand fixed in one position only. Yes different people would have their hands different distances, but as long as each one is within 2 cm, the handle would be legal for them.

I am not sure what you are meaning by 'change their grip'.

[cfaustus]

A martingale is NOT a wrist strap. It is a strap which can only be used legally with the French weapon. It does not fix the position of the weapon so much as it helps keep the weapon fly out of one's hand... think of it like those wrist straps that no one uses for cameras and MP3 players. The martingale is not required but is allowed. Legal only for French.

A wrist strap does fix the weapon to the hand. It can only be used with an Italian. It is not necessary for use with the Italian. The Northern Italian style does not necessarily use it. The Southern does. It is legal, but only for Italian.

[DHCJr]

I agree with you on the difference between a martingale and a wrist strap which I noted above. I do not agree with you on the rules. First of all, when the martingale was required it was required for ALL handles. The only competitions it was required for was non-electric. It was in place to make sure the weapon could not be thrown. With the body cord and security device, that rule was no longer needed. The rule was dropped for the 2002 rule book.

Where do you find the rule where a wrist strap can only be used for an Italian and not a orthopedic grip?

[mrbiggs]

You have me confused. Are you stating one pistol-grip handle and one fencer being able to hold the handle in different difference thumb position or one handle and different fencers would have different difference thumb position. If it is the former, I don't understand. His hand would be fixed. He could move his thumb around maybe scrunch it up, but so what. If it is the latter, then there is no problem. Each fencer would have their hand fixed in one position only. Yes different people would have their hands different distances, but as long as each one is within 2 cm, the handle would be legal for them.

I am not sure what you are meaning by 'change their grip'.

I think he's saying that a fencer with small thumbs and a large grip might have their thumb fixed farther than two centimeters from the guard, and is asking if that fencer would need to hold the grip differently in order to make it legal.

[DHCJr]

If that is the question, then it is easy. Ask a referee. A handle can be ruled legal by an Armorer, but a referee can rule it illegal for THAT fencer. The same can be done for a lame. What M.4 is for what is legal for a particular fencer and a particular handle. What makes a strap with a French grip illegal is that for a particular fencer using a particular handle can strap it on so it is not fixed at any particular position.

[ChrisFrench]

I think he's saying that a fencer with small thumbs and a large grip might have their thumb fixed farther than two centimeters from the guard, and is asking if that fencer would need to hold the grip differently in order to make it legal.

Thanks for hanging in there with me. Sorry about the confusion. Together you have addressed both points.

I agree, any "orthopedic" handle that is over gripped, will fix the hand in one position. If the fencers open their palm, or loosen their grip so that the weapon is manipulated by the fingertips then the hand on the handle has many (subtly different) positions. As an example, the posts on a pistol grip would allow one to use that handle with the thumb pinching (not scrunched) at or more that 2cm from the guard. So, what's my question? I am not aware of a rule that says that if your handle allows you to grip at 0cm, that you are required to fence with your thumb in contact with the guard. (I think flickers change their grip, with the handle more toward the thumb rather than the center of the wrist too) I'm asking about what the rules say about the possibility of changing hand position, with a non-french grip, during fencing.

[DHCJr]

You are quite right. It fixes the position of the hand, not the thumb. If you look at M.4.6.b you will see 'when completely extended'. The WHEN is very important because it implies that it is not expected to be completely extended on all times.

Because of this question, I believe I will add to my signature.