Time between first lesson and fencing?

[mrgenius]

hello, i'm new at this forum! ( and pretty new to fencing too)

at our club, on tuesdays we do
15 min warmup
15 min footwork
60 min bouting (generally with superior players and with a coach alerting you and possibly even taking you aside when you make a mistake)
wednesdays we do
20 min warmup
20 min footwork
20 min drill
30 min fencing
on thursdays it is basically tuesday all over again (although i get a private lesson with the coach for 20 min)

i think bouting from the beginning isn't necessarily bad if the fencer knows the footwork and most of the bladework. then with a coach watching and fighting a superior player, it helps the new people (it helped me when i was new, and still does, but im not as new)

[Tireur]

i think bouting from the beginning isn't necessarily bad if the fencer knows the footwork and most of the bladework.

How is this possible at "the beginning"?

[jBirch]

FlamingDeth,

I agree with your points completely. My point was that you need to integrate the two together. "Assaults" (man, that is cool) have advantages that rote practice doesn't. In the beginning, you're using bouting primarily as a means to keep interest high. You're doing it this way to banish the fear of hitting the opponent and of getting hit in return. This is critical to learning good technique. 6 months of footwork can be a hard pill to swallow for most people. Especially those paying $500 for the priviledge. Yes, you're ultra keen when you finally do get to do something with a blade, but, as a coach, you've missed countless opportunities to really set the hook with those guys on the fringe. BTW, I learned your way with a twist: 3 months of footwork, but day one had me in an assault with one of the senior fencers. That REALLY set the hook. *grin*

You can train distance and timing using drills, certainly, just as you can train technique using bouts. I believe, however, that you can teach distance and timing better using assaults and technique better using drills. Further, as a diagnostic, what I often find is that the motions are performed correctly in practice, then all goes to crap when they get bouting. It's often easier to see where the problmes are when the student is thinking like they would in a bout and easier to work on the mental aspects as well when they have the problem in front of them.

By creativity, what I've seen is students spontaneously coming up with the correct tactical solution, often executed well, when exposed to the tactical problem on the piste. A disengage is not that hard to figure out. Learning when to use it, is. By putting the student in front of the problem, and motivating them to solve it, you often get good analysis and good solutions. Sometimes, you see really weird stuff that makes you, as a coach, stop and think. It's valuable here too. My feeling is that we are training people to outthink their opponent first, then simply follow through with what they're supposed to do. I believe, strongly, that you should know that you're going to hit before you even start your attack. That's what bouting trains that drilling does not.

Setting them up is something that just happens. We then stop and talk about what was going on (either the opponent is doing that to the student, or the student is doing that to the opponent). That gives a greater impetus to proper technique. As an example, one of my sabereurs noticed a flaw in one of the instructors during an assault. She took advantage of it succesfully a couple of times before getting caught in a pattern. That she, someone who has been fencing for less then 2 months, was able to see the flaw in the first place was extraordinary. That she was able to do something about it made me even more proud. That she was able to do all this in the context of a bout made me damn near ecstatic! She now knows that seeing a flaw and exploiting it is one thing, but you can't get stuck in a pattern. She also saw a pattern as a potential flaw that could be exploited as easily as bad technique. No amount of drilling would have gotten her to think like that.

That is the kind of thing that can only be trained by assault, again and again, followed by analysis and practice. The earlier you get started on that process, the easier it becomes to produce a truly excellent fencer.

Hope this helps.

[Masterurethane]

there is no need to be so pedantic

[FoilyGeezer]

Originally posted by Masterurethane
there is no need to be so pedantic

Funny, I didn't find it pedantic at all!!!

I think that one of the things we need to realise here is that fencing is very notably a sport of levels. At each successive level the nuance and complexity of movement increases. One of the achilles' heels of Bouting too much too early is a tendency to be bouting against someone on your approximate skill level.

I've frequently noticed novice fencers using tactics that reinforce, or even create bad habits that will haunt them at the next level up, but work marvelously well against their contemporaries. However, that's part of the evolution of each individual fencer.

It's a good goal, to try and train fencers not to have bad habits, but it's ultimate reality that a fencer is going to tend to do the stuff that works more than do the stuff that's right. I think that training without regard to that balance (either by under or overuse of bouting) doesn't serve the fencer well in the long run.

[Masterurethane]

no no no no

Sorry, I was referring to Tireur and the way he picked up on me saying we used "swords"

Haven't mastered the quote function yet, sorry for the confusion!

[Tireur]

Sorry, I was referring to Tireur and the way he picked up on me saying we used "swords"

Sorry, I didn't mean to "pick" on you. I've just been encountering this "sword" thing a lot lately. "Lord of the Rings" followers and all.

Happened a few years ago with the "Zorro" movie. Lots of students would sign up so they could fence like Zorro and were disappointed when they found out that's not what we taught.

Not that this was what you were doing or anything.

Again, sorry.

[Masterurethane]

Sorry, I wasn't offended or anything, I guess it's just a common blanket term that people use. You are after all correct, it's just I'm sure people knew what I meant.

I'm not a Lord of the Rings fencer,but i am expecting the arrival of the "Pirates of the Caribbean" fencers rather shortly, hehe.

[starlightdust]

Originally posted by Masterurethane
I'm not a Lord of the Rings fencer,but i am expecting the arrival of the "Pirates of the Caribbean" fencers rather shortly, hehe.

It's after seeing that movie that the idea of fencing came back to my mind... Now I'm in fencing school but I don't intend on being like Jack Sorrow... or whatever his name was! lol

[Masterurethane]

hehe, I do love that film, and films like that are generally pretty good for inspiring people to fence. Which can only be a good thing, drinks all round!

[The0ne]

Captain Jack Sparrow is the guys name. . . Great show by Johnny Depp!