newbie question about lunging

[starlightdust]

Hello all!

Thinking about fencing for years. Started taking courses at the local club for 3 weeks now. I got the book "The art and science of fencing" and it brought up so many questions!

While reading a section on choosing a school, it came to me that the the way they teach us fencing at the club isn't really good. Example, started bouting early without knowing the "whys" of our actions... Just afraid I might get bad habits afterwards...

Anyway, I was wondering... When lunging... The correct way to do it when speaking of a lunge. Do you have to keep your back foot on the ground at all time or is it ok to jump to gain terrain while lunging?

This might seem stupid but just wanna make sur I have it the right way...

Thanks!!
JJ

[Zelda]

JJ, you just opened a can of worms! Dont worry its an interesting can(depending on your opinion)!
"The art and science of fencing" and its author are "interesting". Generally take whatever the author says is taken with a pinch of salt. If you do a search for the book title you will find a few threads where this book has been discussed at length.

As for the lunging question, I was always taught when lunging to keep your back foot flat. Hope this helps!!

[pkt]

See the foto of the two sabreurs on the banner above to the left of the green "fencing.net" logo.
That's what a lunge should look like.
>>>Foremost: The sword arm starts extending,<<<
http://www.fpe.pt/esgrima2002/pcme-085.jpg
http://www.fpe.pt/esgrima2002/pcme-087.jpg
[This are NOT what you ought to be doing! Beautiful lunges though they may be.]
1. front toes up;
2. kick front foot out [if there's a coin underneath the ball of your front foot, the coin should go straight ahead to where your opp't is. This is a good exercise. If the coin is left behind, that means you've picked up your foot then kicking it fwd.];
3. as soon as front foot clears the ground, the back foot pushes till it's fully extended;
4. the front leg continues with the extension;
5. at a certain point in time both your legs should be totally straigt;
http://www.fpe.pt/esgrima2002/pcme-042.jpg

[In the foto above, Tarantino (L) is further into his lunge than Pillet (R). Pillet's just completed this step and his front foot has yet to land: It's still 2-3 cm above the piste;
6. the front foot lands on the heel [hence you should have a heel cup for your front heel or you'll regret it. Don't skimp on this vital piece of safety equipment.] If you're a sabre fencer this is the latest your hit is permitted to land; any later it'll be defined as a remise; this rule doesnot apply to foil or epee;
7. the hip starts sinking down onto the front leg [this is where Tarantino's at] this is partly to help the torso maintain an upright posture;
8. the back leg bends at the hip [see where Pillet's left hand is in the foto? That's the part I'm referring to.];
9. at the end of the lunge the front thigh and the front calf should form a 90-degree angle any thing greater than 90-degree, you're under-lunging, anything smaller than a 90-degree angle, you're overlunging;
http://www.fpe.pt/esgrima2002/pcme-038.jpg
10. the classical lunge ends with the back leg straight and the rear foot firmly planted and the fencer recovers backwards to the on-huard position.
These are variants:
10a. the flying lunge: where the back foot pushed so hard that it ended up at least 12 inches further ahead than where it started. This is what Tarantino's lunge was;
[this is an example of a genuine FLYING lunge:
http://www.fpe.pt/esgrima2002/pcme-018.jpg
10b. the kneeling lunge [my term]: the rear leg went beyond the flying lunge, the rear knee almost hits or does hit the ground, but the fencer's momentum is so great that he recovers forward to the on-guard position.
http://www.fpe.pt/esgrima2002/pcme-012.jpg

For a larger foto of this go to:
http://www.fpe.pt/esgrima2002/pcme-008.jpg

Others, I'm sure, will add to this.

PK

[Gav]

Before folks start arguing about the rights an wrong's of what to do in 'situation X' remember that you have only just started. It takes time and perserverence to get anywhere in this sport.

Get the fundamentals right and the rest is easier. So practise getting the basics correct. Keep that back foot flat. Don't over lunge - your front knee should be over your ankle not behind it and certainly not in front of it. Your upper body should be upright and not leaning forward or back. Additionally, aim to have your upper body relaxed. Don't forget that your hand leads and your foot follows. So when practising your lunge; extend arm first foot actions next.

Next tip re your arm. Don't over extend it. A lot of newcomers extend their arm to it's limit and this is counterproductive as it locks the shoulder and you will find it hard to do any work with your fingers. Try to only extend it to about 98%.

[Gav]

Originally posted by pkt
See the foto of the two sabreurs on the banner above to the left of the green "fencing.net" logo.
That's what a lunge should look like.

Err.... no. These guys are probably only starting their lunges - they haven't landed yet. It's not what a lunge should look like.

Starlightdust: You are only a beginner stick to the basics.

[pkt]

Gav,
Belated Happy Robbie Burns Day.


I just checked the fotos I downloaded from Lisbon.

[I stand corrected, it was Tarantino on the left] ... and yes, his hit has landed already: the red light in his mask is on. Pillet's mask light is just starting to light up. Here's the URL:

http://www.fpe.pt/esgrima2002/pcme-008.jpg

Tarantino's rear foot is temporarily about 30-40 cm off the piste; and Pillet's front foot is 2-4 cm above the piste.

So, na-na-na-na-na, you are wrong.

With all due respects, Gav, stick with epee.

Do you realise that the mask light lights up 3-6 frames ahead of the light on the machine which is connested to the fencer wirelessly? [I told you, I need a life.]
Maybe DHC Jr can give us an explanation, eh?

PK

[Gav]

Originally posted by pkt
Gav,
Belated Happy Robbie Burns Day.


I just checked the fotos I downloaded from Lisbon.

[I stand corrected, it was Tarantino on the left] ... and yes, his hit has landed already: the red light in his mask is on. Pillet's mask light is just starting to light up. Here's the URL:

http://www.fpe.pt/esgrima2002/pcme-008.jpg

Tarantino's rear foot is temporarily about 30-40 cm off the piste; and Pillet's front foot is 2-4 cm above the piste.

So, na-na-na-na-na, you are wrong.

With all due respects, Gav, stick with epee.

Do you realise that the mask light lights up 3-6 frames ahead of the light on the machine which is connested to the fencer wirelessly? [I told you, I need a life.]
Maybe DHC Jr can give us an explanation, eh?

PK

Fair enough. But I still say that the photo is misleading to a newbie. They should stick to basics and everything else will fall into place. I know I enough about lunging to be able to advise a newbie.

[jBirch]

Hey JJ,

WELCOME TO FENCING!

Anytime a beginning student of mine asks, "is it ok to..." it generally means that they are trying to get out of doing things the right way and trying to do things in "the way that works for me". [grin] Not to harp on you.

For a beginner, the answer is emphatically yes. Do the lunge properly. Learn it correctly and practice it correctly and constantly. You are training your muscles. The reason you want to keep your back foot planted is because of the advantages it will give you when you get used to it, not because it is immediately better and will help you win low level bouts. Being dynamic with your footwork at all is most important in low level bouts. What you learn there though will carry on into your mid and upper level bouting too. Careful what you train since training is MUCH easier then UN-training.

The advantages of a flat back foot:

1) Easier forward recovery.
2) Better lunge distance. Note, this is better overall distance, not greater distance.
3) Less "bobbing" and telegraphing of the lunge.
4) Faster lunge. Note, this is *faster* not longer.
5) Better balance.
6) Easier rearward recovery.
7) Long term joint use.

Rolling your back ankle will give you extra distance but you don't know when you want extra distance and when you don't. Lunging is not just about going a long distance forward, so get rid of that notion right fast. It's about closing the distance to your opponent faster then they think you can and getting inside their defenses faster then they can retreat to safety. A long lunge can be just as big a liability as a short one.

On the subject of bouting, it is an interesting question. Evangelista (the guy that wrote that book) has his opinion and it is a classical one. The key to learning to fence is to be dilligent enough to train what's right, not just what works right now. If you bout with the idea of learning something then it's better to get into that as quickly as possible. Distance, timing, opponent analysis and clarity under pressure are things that can only really be taught in a bout. Technique, reflexes, theory and information are something that can only really be taught outside of a bout, IMHO.
The exclusion of one is a bad idea: you need to use both environments for what they are best at.

One of the most important things to keep in mind is to choose a school that teaches you what you want to know in a manner that communicates the information to you as effectively as possible. Don't worry about whether the school ticks the little checkbox for each of the criteria that someone else has laid down. Honestly, a good school is one in which you have fun fencing and get the best information for your goals.

Hope this helps and keep up the practice!

[starlightdust]

Thanks a lot everyone... You guys are really helpful. It's nice to see that these forums are active!! I'm so eager on being more knowledgable and practice some more! Courses are just once a week... this is long waiting!! lol

Take care all
JJ

[FlamingDeth]

Egad, and to think that when I started, my coach wouldn't even let us touch the weapons for three weeks, much less bout...

Either way, yes, the back foot should be flat. Onthe whole "jumping" issue, I personally tend to try to limit myself to horizontal motion, as bouncing up and down the strip not only causes your tip to go all over the place, but it also looks kind of silly.

[veeco]

Actually, I would say from the picture that Tarantino has already finished his lunge a long time ago and is on his way to recovery, while Pillet is finishing his lunge. The fact that Tarantino's body is leaning forward, the position of his rear foot, and the pressure applied on his front foot makes me feel that he is actually starting to move backwards.

I'd say this action was a case of a simple lunge from left and step lunge from right.

[Thomas]

Im in the same boat as you starlight. Classes once a week, Ive had 2 lessons so far, and right after we learned the lunge we immediantly started fencing. I use the lunge 2 ways. The proper one and my own version where the back foot leaves the ground because sometimes that extra ground coverage helps. So yeah its ok to let the back foot move.

[neevel]

I have beginners keep the back foot planted and flat when I first teach the lunge. The chief reason for this is to ensure that they fully extend the back leg when they lunge, rather than "hopping" or pulling the back leg up in a sort of unconcious, half-way forward recovery.

Once you really start making strong lunges, though, you're going to find that a slide of the back foot is a normal follow through. The key is that the slide occurs after the back leg is completely extended, and the leg remains extened through the slide. Ideally the back foot remains flat as it slides, too. In any lunge, the hit should normally arrive before or with the landing of the front foot. Sometime a touch can be made during the slide against an opponent who has made an inadequate distance-break and is not ready to parry.

Eventually you can get into 'airborne' lunges-- there are many who can use these quite effectively. The thing to always remember is that these are actions that come in best at a fairly advanced skill level, and need to be employed in the right tactical circumstances.

There is no one "right" way to lunge-- there are a whole range of variations on the action which are applicable to different situations. The classical, rear-foot-planted-flat lunge is, however, the point of departure all of these variations, so it's a good idea to get that down before moving on.

As some have noted, Nick Evengelista is prone to making highly opinionated, absolutist assertions based on a track record that is distinctly less impressive than he would have readers believe. Do a search though the discussion archives and you find plenty on him. The only reason most of us give him any mind share is just to let beginners like you know that you shouldn't take his word as being particularly authoritative or definitive.

-Dave

[pkt]

Originally posted by starlightdust
Thanks a lot everyone... You guys are really helpful. It's nice to see that these forums are active!! I'm so eager on being more knowledgable and practice some more! Courses are just once a week... this is long waiting!! lol

Take care all
JJ

To add to jBirch's advise,
Remember a lunge is to deliver the point/cutting edge to the target. So to the question how long should one lunge, the answer is simple: as long as it takes to hit your opp't. In other words, it depends on how far your opp't is. If your opp't is close by you only need a short lunge, or even a step fwd and hit. Other times, you need a Loooong lunge. At other times, you need a step and lunge... Hence the need to keep your eyes opened and act accordingly.

If you're serious, try to do some practise on your own. Just remember what your coach taught you. Try using a full-length mirror to monitor what you're doing. If you have a v-camera, then use it with a tripod...

Enjoy yourself and good luck,
PK

[pkt]

Originally posted by Thomas
...The proper one and my own version where the back foot leaves the ground because sometimes that extra ground coverage helps. So yeah its ok to let the back foot move.

Thomas,

Your so-called "my own version" is what is called the flying lunge.

Look at some of the fotos I've posted the link to at the beginning of this thread...

Sorry to disappoint you but there are very few NEW moves as such. It's like saying Columbus "discovered" N. America!!!

PK

[pkt]

JJ & Thomas,

another way to learn to lunge properly is to lift up your front foot to 1-2 cm abover the ground, then kick the foot fwd, then push with all your might with the back foot.

The emphasis is NOT to bring the front foot back before you kick fwd... The only way to make sure you do the front-foot-fwd-kick properly is to learn with the coin-under-the-ball-of-the-foot exercise.

Look at the fotos from the 2002 fotos I;ve listed, that what proper lunges should look like....

Oh, no one has mentioned this, I think, learn to RELAX even when you're executing any move in fencing. Tighten ONLY the muscles you need to use at that very moment...

PK

[Morion]

J.J.
I have been fencing for just under a year now so I'm no expert, but I have read a couple of the books by Nick Evangilista. I can echo what some of the other posters have said. Don't take everything he says as gospel. Pistol grips are not a tool of the devil and you won't be ruined for life if you hold your back arm down instead of the classical raised position. These adaptations evolved for a reason.

On the other hand I have adapted some of his ideas. I use a French Grip for foil in the hope that I may some day actually learn superior point control. It aggravates my coach to no end but since I am not really ever expecting to be seriously competetive it doesn't matter. For Epee I use a pistol grip mainly so I won't be disarmed so easily. It's darned embarassing when a weapon goes clattering to the floor and everbody stops to see what happened!

The main use I have found for Evangilistas books is that he provides some fairly clear descriptions of a lot of the basic moves that you will learn eventually. I like knowing in advance what is coming. For instance I have not yet "officially" been taught how to parry in Prime but I at least know what it is.

So, I would suggest that you learn the moves as your coach teaches them to you and learn to do them well. When you have the basics down to an instinctive level you will hopefully find that you can watch what your opponent does and figure out how to use it against them. That's why they call this game "physical Chess".

Good Luck!

[Tireur]

I use a French Grip for foil in the hope that I may some day actually learn superior point control. It aggravates my coach to no end

I can't imagine a coach being aggravated by this.......

[Thomas]

pkt,

Thanks for the info. Im not disappointed at all. I had a feeling it already existed. Thats why I said its just my version. I wasnt trying to alter any fencing books.

Thomas

[Morion]

Tireur:

I guess it would be more appropriate to say that I aggravated my coach to no end. It is harder to hold and use a French grip properly. I was driving her nuts by doing several things just slightly wrong. Nothing that was easy to spot but she knew my form was off.