The Swedish issue, and the perception of Sweden in Israel

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

Snips by me.

Originally posted by jeff
I do believe there is a strong anti-US bias in Europe, and not just due to the current US administration. I recall rhetoric from 1968 onwards that claimed that the US was provincial, culturally backwards, imperialistic, &etc, and compared us unfavorably with the USSR and China despite their obvious (but denied) defects. So, as unpleasant as things are now, it's not a new situation. We are parochial here, due to single large country, land-mass, and economic and military strength, and look across the pond less frequently and with less emotion than the Europeans. So I think the conflict is more revealing about Europe's insecurities than they are about the US per se.

There has been an anti-US opinion (among other opinions) since at least 1968 (ask me! I was born 1966, so lived though it as a target!)

However, the intensity is decidedly more since Bush II took office. It has also changed - now there are many more people who vote for non-socialist parties, but dislike the US. administration anyway. The number of people who personally take me to task has declined a lot since the 70ies, but people state the distinction "I have nothing against USA per se, and like its (insert whatever here) it is Bush II that I especially dislike." Bush II is seen as a proponent of several ideas that simply can not be stated in polite company (or any company at all) over here. This change came abrubtly when Bush II took office, and our insecurities can not have changed just like that - snap. Newsweek had a good article on the topic a year ago or so.

Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[jeff]

Well, I intensely dislike Bush II, so I can't blame others for feeling the same.

That said, I'd feel more sympathetic to their views (and consider them with some degree of respect) if the people holding them were more critical of Mugabe, Putin, and Hu Jintao today, and Pol Pot, Stalin, Brezhnev, Mao back then. Some people who've done truly monstrous things get a free ride from people who casually compare Bush (or Sharon) to Hitler. That pretty much prevents me taking them or their criticisms seriously.

[veeco]

Originally posted by jeff
When Zimbabwe's Mugabe and Chinese President Hu Jintao separately visited Paris, they were greeted with pomp and ceremony, notwithstanding the blood on their regimes' hands (Tibet? Who cares!).

When one of the above leaders makes it to the US, I sure hope you will be one of the first ones in the streets proclaiming your horror at what these people have done. I sure hope that the American administration at the time doesn't give them the same warm welcome that they give to Prime Minister Tony Blair, to make them understand that they need to change their stance on the atrocities that they are doing.

As in many debates we've had here in the past, there are situations where a country's interests are put in front of other, more humane interests. I am not saying that I condone this behavior, but it is unfortunately rampant everywhere, and not just in Europe. Saying that there is a double standard isn't fair.

On the Chinese president's visit, I just saw on the French news today that when he visited Paris' city hall, he was greeted by only half of the city council, the other half was outside with a bunch of tibetans asking for the Chinese authorities to free Tibet. So the welcome that Hu Jintao received wasn't so warm as you claimed it was. He did have to face some detractors. Just like I am sure he would have to if he went to the US.

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by jeff
I'd feel more sympathetic to their views (and consider them with some degree of respect) if the people holding them were more critical of Mugabe, Putin, and Hu Jintao today, and Pol Pot, Stalin, Brezhnev, Mao back then. Some people who've done truly monstrous things get a free ride from people who casually compare Bush (or Sharon) to Hitler. That pretty much prevents me taking them or their criticisms seriously.

Well, maybe they just consider Bush to be a more "imminent threat"....

Actually, though, I suspect that a lot of the anti-Bush variety of anti-Americanism reflects a sort of bandwagon effect, aided in large part by the overseas media, which seems to be "out front" on every grounds for attacking US values, interests and leadership...the more people around you adopt a certain view, the more pressure there is for you to conform to it, especially if it's not really a core belief of yours.

As for rehabilitation, I will not hesitate to ay that I for one do not "believe" in it. In fact I believe it to be a chimaera, a will-o-the-wisp after which politicians and social reformers cast enormous amounts of money and effort, with about the same effect as if they had cast them into a bottomless pit...

[faito anto]

In answer to your question Fechter, Yes I have travelled to Europe.

Fecter, I'm not going to go over this again in detail, because I have already many times explained why I believe European anti-Israel sentiment is a politically correct form of anti-semitism, and is Europe's way of feeling better about their past. I have also said that Germany has done a much better job than most other European countries in rehabilitating itself.

It is not Israel that it constantly criticising Europe, but the other way around. E.g. It is Europeans launching boycotts of Israeli products, not the other way around.

As to your questioning of whether there is anti-semitism in europe,
unfortunately, i don't know how to post photos in here (i hope this works - i dont think it did- can someone please explain to me what i did wrong in trying to post this picture?), :

[img]http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?ssbinary=true&cachecontrol=*%3A0%2C30%3A 10+*%[/img]

Lazio fans display banners from the stands of Rome's Olympic stadium during Lazio vs Roma Italian first division match in this Sunday, November 29,1998 file photo. The banner directed against the rival's team Jewish supporters reads: "Auschwitz is your Homeland, the ovens are your homes".
Photo: AP (File)

[IMG]http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?ssbinary=true&cachecontrol=*%3A0%2C30%3A 10+*%[/IMG]

[jeff]

Veeco: fortunately, my government hasn't embarrassed me by acting as if Mugabe or Hu Jintao are less of a risk than, say, Chirac, unlike the French authorities response to Bush. The contrast is quite compelling. See http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/25/in...al/25PARI.html
"With Fanfare and a Grand Parade, Paris Celebrates France's Ties to China". This illustrates precisely my point that France (among others, of course), treats people with bloody hands on much more friendly terms than the US. I'm demonstrating double standards and anti-US bias, and having no difficulty finding evidence.

Since the first cause for my protesting would be the actions of my government, I think I'm in a far better position. Speaking of which, http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/27/in...pe/27CHIN.html says "France Makes Headway in Push to Permit Arms Sales to China". How nice (those arms sales were curtailed after the Tienanmen massacre)

As I said before, Europe is not monolothic, and there were protests by Jack Lang and others during Hu Jintao's visit. Clearly though, the French government and people treated him much more warmly than they would have treated Bush or any other US government figure, despite their far worse records.

[veeco]

Originally posted by jeff
Veeco: fortunately, my government hasn't embarrassed me by acting as if Mugabe or Hu Jintao are less of a risk than, say, Chirac, unlike the French authorities response to Bush. The contrast is quite compelling. See http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/25/in...al/25PARI.html
"With Fanfare and a Grand Parade, Paris Celebrates France's Ties to China". This illustrates precisely my point that France (among others, of course), treats people with bloody hands on much more friendly terms than the US. I'm demonstrating double standards and anti-US bias, and having no difficulty finding evidence.

Since the first cause for my protesting would be the actions of my government, I think I'm in a far better position. Speaking of which, http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/27/in...pe/27CHIN.html says "France Makes Headway in Push to Permit Arms Sales to China". How nice (those arms sales were curtailed after the Tienanmen massacre)

As I said before, Europe is not monolothic, and there were protests by Jack Lang and others during Hu Jintao's visit. Clearly though, the French government and people treated him much more warmly than they would have treated Bush or any other US government figure, despite their far worse records.

The fanfare and grand parade where for Chinese New Year. As far as I know there is one every year in San Francisco and New York. The fact that there is one in Paris is a problem, but it's not one when it happens in NY. Lots of people here come from China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Tibet. Celebrating the new year for them is as important as celebrating the new year for the Chinese residents of San Francisco or NY.

It's simply amazing how much spin can be put on events when you really want it.

Trust me, France is one of the first nations fighting for Tibet to be free.

The US is also one of the most prominent suppliers of weapons to Saudi Arabia from which most of the 911 hijackers came from, and who is not exactly on the friendly side of Israel.

http://www.fas.org/asmp/profiles/saudi_arabia.htm

There are also investigations being made against some people in the Clinton administration for providing enriched uranium to China.

So just saying that Europe is tough on Israel and not on other countries is dubious.

The fact that most people in Europe don't like Bush has nothing to do in and of itself with Israel or anti-semitism. Bush isn't Jewish and hasn't really made a claim saying that he supports Israel more than an another country. I am sure that he is mostly interested in getting peace in the area, thus providing him with more meat for his presidential campaign.

Perhaps Europe is even harder on America and Bush because they feel like America as some of their best friends and allies should be warned and told when they do something that we dissaprove of. Even more than other countries that we don't feel as close to.

[jeff]

Chinese New Years happens every year, but the fanfare does not. From the article I referenced:

As part of the country's "Year of China" promotion, officials closed Paris' grand avenue, the Champs-Élysées, on Saturday afternoon for a huge parade dominated by a dancing dragon — the first time the avenue has been taken over by an intrinsically non-French event since German troops marched down it during World War II.... The only things missing, though, were firecrackers, banned for security reasons, and adherents of Falun Gong, the spiritual movement that the Chinese government has banned. The group's request to join the festivities was denied.

There's much more text, including mention of how Hu Jintao was feted, that some protested this, and that last year's Year of Algeria was done on much smaller scale, despite the vastly larger population in France of Algerian background.

I agree: the US should not sell arms to Saudi Arabia (but we probably have to in order to fend off additional complaints of one-sided behavior. Besides, sadly, our arms lobby is very powerful). But we all have our poor choices; France shouldn't have sold arms to Saddam, at least certainly not after Gulf War I. I believe that they did, though it's possible I'm mistaken. France certainly sold Iraq weapons (Mirage jets) and two nuclear reactors before Gulf War I.

At least there's the excuse of making money when it comes to China. What possible reason was there to cozy up to Mugabe? Are you saying that the rhetoric applied to Bush and US, or to Sharon and Israel, is no harsher than the language applied to Mugabe and Hu Jintao? Nonsense. (and, wasn't it the French ambassador to Britain who referred to Israel as "that sh*tty little country"?)

The US neglected to "warn and tell" about some action Europeans dissaproved of? What action? We certainly said we were going to invade Iraq, if that's what you had in mind. It wasn't a secret.

I don't link anti-Bush or anti-US bias in Europe to anti-Israeli bias and anti-Semitism, but it's obvious they exist. I don't consider the evidence dubious in the least (arson at synagogues in Marseilles, Créteil, Lyon, Strasbourg are a clue). Not that I want to single out France in this (though I think their policy has been objectionable and cynical), but Europe is in real denial about both flavors of bias. And it's not just about recent policy - as I said earlier, the bias goes back decades.

(My non-US sources include: Reuters, BBC World News, the Economist, and the Spectator - English language sources, but definitely not USA origin)