Electric equipment questions

[Tireur]

No one else in the area used 'em, so it was new to me.

Regional preferences, I guess. I saw very few 2-prongs until I got out of my local area. We had one guy who used them. Kept trying to tell him to get bayonets...........

[JAySE SUiCiDE]

Originally posted by Tireur
I have never had a bayonet pop out. Ever.

just like i've never had a 2-prong pop out on me when i was fencing..

~Jes

[JAySE SUiCiDE]

Originally posted by Inquartata
I used to secure those Prieur-style 2-prongs not with the plastic keeper but with one of the spring-wire rings keys come on---not the split-rings but the ones that are just a circle of wire with an overlap. It'll fit around the socket, between the two individial pin sockets, and after you plug in you slip it over the body-cord plug. Never had one pop out using those. It also doesn't come apart at inopportune moments, scattering tiny pieces around the room, like the Uhlmann/Allstar springloaded keepers...

well, on those you can usually tell when it's gonna come apart cause it's hard to push the little button in, like you try to but it doesnt work..



just playing devils advocate, dont mind me..

~Jes

[KShan5[PrFC]]

Originally posted by JAySE SUiCiDE
just like i've never had a 2-prong pop out on me when i was fencing..

~Jes

well you are the first person I have ever heard of not to have a two-prong pop out.

[neevel]

Some people have used bayonets and never had them pop out.
Some people have used 2 prongs and never had them pop out.

There were doubtless some people who bought AMC Pacers back in the '70s and never had any major reliability issues with them, too .

[JAySE SUiCiDE]

Originally posted by neevel
Some people have used bayonets and never had them pop out.
Some people have used 2 prongs and never had them pop out.

There were doubtless some people who bought AMC Pacers back in the '70s and never had any major reliability issues with them, too .

could you fill me in on what the AMC Pacers were, or give a link to a pic of them..?

thanks,
~Jes

[Inquartata]

The Pacer was an ugly, cheap and poorly-made car, sort of the Yugo of its day...do a search on Google, you should be able to find more than you wanted to know...

[KShan5[PrFC]]

To steal Inq's suggestion, try this...http://yellow.freeservers.com/76pactt3.jpg

[JAySE SUiCiDE]

Originally posted by Inquartata
The Pacer was an ugly, cheap and poorly-made car, sort of the Yugo of its day...do a search on Google, you should be able to find more than you wanted to know...

ahhh..i get it now..im a bit slow today, like when a kid said "oh snap, doc!" and the teacher said "and crackle and pop to you, sir."...i didn't get that until a good 5 minutes later..

needless to say, after i posted that i went to google and did a search on it, though i thought it might have been an early body cord model...shows how young I am..

hehehe..it even just LOOKS funny..

~Jes

[sallearmourer]

The best baynotte socket out there is the Negiel sold by American fencers. I have used the itailian baynotte socket longner then most of you been around

[neevel]

I agree with Tim on this-- the Carmimari/Negrini bayonet is the most elegant and durable design. The only thing I don't like about it is that the wire connects to the plug with solder, rather than contact screws. While a solder connection is in principle more reliable, it can't be quickly fixed with just a pocketknife and screwdriver when something does go wrong. This is one instance where ease-of-repair outweighs reliability.

There is another Italian bayonet design, the Novascherma "mobile contact", which looks vaguely like the Leon Paul bayonet, but with a fatter plug body and a smaller tip. Not nearly as good as the Carmimari design; I'd choose Leon Paul over it, too. Sort of the Fiat Strada of body cords (dredging up a '70s car that sucked even more than the Pacer ).

-Dave

[sallearmourer]

David the Negnni use a screw not solder to connect the wire with only
the Carmiman using solder. I have both and that one reason I am switch over to the Negnni bayonet because of the screw.

[CarlKnoch]

Originally posted by KShan5[PrFC]
well you are the first person I have ever heard of not to have a two-prong pop out.

Let me be the second then.

Of course I only use UH cords, and I never use one without a retaining clip. Only cords in good repair, and there's the rub...

Most of the people who are having problems with cords coming out are those who either have crappy knock off cords, or mismatched sockets! If you have an Uhlmann cord and a terrible little knock off socket, they will work together, but there's a greater chance of them coming apart during fencing. Same with crappy cords and an Uhlmann socket. Use matching sockets and cords that are in good repair and voila! No more problems with cords coming out!

[Inquartata]

"Cords that are in good repair"...I have heard tales of such things...always thought them to be only myths....

[MyraTrue]

I guess I stand with the rest of the 2-prong advocates. I, too, have never had a 2-prong come out of the socket. I HAVE had incompatible cheapo 2-prongs make a poor connection with a socket, but never problems with Uhlmann's. I fenced for 8 months in England on a Bayonette system, and hated it. Granted, a lot of what we had was cheap/much abused.

We had this one foil that you had to wrap the bayonette wire around your wrist a couple of times and THEN clip in, because the slightest tug and it'd let go. WEEEEE! WHITE LIGHT!

I finally got to buying my own equipment, and having used most of what was easily accessibly, I decided I'd go 2-prong, and I'd go Uhlmann (well, I fence epee, but I own foil wires too). I've never had problems with them, and I'm very happy for it.

I think in the long run, no matter what style you choose, you'll spend less money if you buy a good quality bodywire. They hold up, and the peace of mind is worth it. At least to me. I smirk as my Uhlmann function without fail, and my oponent is on her 3rd wire, and still swearing.

[dberke]

I like the look of the Mr. Chen bodycords but hate the contact sleeve things on the pins that break from wear. I found a simple solution... I'd buy an Uhlmann 2-prong connector for $5 and use it to replace the Mr. Chen one. I only replaced the weapon end since it seems to take more of a beating than the reel end.

I've replaced all of my connectors with the Uhlmann ones and have not had a single problem since then.

Dan

[Barry Paul]

Biased view of the difference between Bayonet and two pin plugs. As for the last post a Leon Paul bayonet if used properly last for ever. Club fencers just don't realise that you neen to push and twist to put the plug in and out.

The two pin bodywire system has a basic design flaw due to the use of the banjo/banana pins. These pins were never designed for constant insertion and retraction. In order to maintain continuous contact and low resistance between the pin and socket the banjo pins need to be tight fitting. The outer member of the pin is overstressed and fatigue rapidly. My abiding memory of foil finals of the 70/80 was the constant halts caused by faulty bodywires (Two pin) and the small screwdriver kept by every coach used to stretch the banjo elements. Because of pre-testing before finals we don’t see the problem so occurring so often. Many of the banjo pins have sharp edges which enlarge the socket and gradually make good contact and low resistance between the pin and socket even harder.

The bayonet system which is universally the Leon Paul system in the U.K.(or poor copies of it) uses compression of two coil springs to maintain contact between mating parts.
To the question which system is better you should not ignore the rest of the body wire its manufacturing quality and design concept/philosophy. The same inherent fault with using the banjo pins on the two pin plug also applies to using these pins on the three pin plug connecting to the spool fencers end socket. (Also at Epee to the epee socket) The Leon Paul solution was to re-invent the three pin socket. The pins are smooth and set into the plastic body of the plug such that they are off set. As the plug is pushed into the socket the individual pins twist the plastic body, It is this deformation which maintains perfect contact and the smooth pins do not wear out the sockets.

The other main cause of failure is due to wires breaking, this almost always occurs at the junction between the wire and the body of the plugs. The failure is caused by fatigue of the wire as it is constantly flexed. The Leon Paul solution is to use very flexible outer covers which ensure the radius of curvature of any bending is as large as possible. The hard shelled plastic bodies with multi screw fixings of the majority of other designs is just poor design and shows a complete lack of understanding of basic engineering principles.(but they do look expensive and well made)

Other important considerations are ease of replacement, repair and maintenance. Two pin sockets are difficult to wire and need both a wide blade screw driver and a spanner. The two pin plugs and terminations are difficult and fiddly to repair and put back. The Leon Paul design uses a unique wire piecing system preferred by most modern telecommunication connections. .

Choice of body wire cable is important transparent to see any breaks. Flexibility to ensure long life before fatigue failure. Such fatigue failure is dependant on individual strand diameter, larger diameter wire does not mean longer life, most thicker cables will start to fail quicker.

Sparky complains that the Leon Paul socket can be put in different positions; some thing which I feel is an advantage. His problem of moving socket is more likely to be caused by have a large set on his foil and he needs to grind the end of his handles down so that they match up squarely to the guard.

Coming soon (three months) a new light weight socket with new design features lighter, smaller, will not wear out even if operated incorectly and harder to break.

Barry Paul M D Leon Paul

[CarlKnoch]

Thanks for the post Mr Paul. While you've said of banjo pins: "These pins were never designed for constant insertion and retraction." I'm curious to know if your plugs are designed for constant insertion and retraction? They are spring loaded yes? Those springs never wear out nor does the socket or the plug itself?

In my limited experience, I've seen MUCH more trouble with the bayonet sockets and plugs than I have the two prong sockets and plugs. That's what prompts this post. I have yet to have a 2 prong plug or socket wear out. I've had the wires break and had to rewire the cord though. (The wire itself seems to be the weak point of body cords)

I help with a local college club with foil, and they have all bayonet cords and sockets. Most of which are LP, and many years old! They all exhibit problems with the connectivity at the socket. You shake the weapon at all, and get an off target when the plug wobbles in the socket. They also have 2 prong cords for saber there, and I've noticed that most of the two prong cords are working without problems. (Some do have trouble with making a good connection, they are the smooth prongs that are split down the middle and often need to be spread again) They are also old cords, most of which were not Uhlmann.

Do you find that it's due to mishandling of the plug and socket that makes the LPs exhibit these problems, and that if handled correctly they would last forever as you said in your post?

I'm asking this as I'm curious to see if your post is a marketting message, or if it's completely, in fact, true.

Does anyone with experience with the LP cords and sockets, who have used them correctly, have any old cords that have never failed in order to substantiate this claim that they will last forever if used properly?

Just curious,
Carl

[Barry Paul]

There are several problems not all bayonet sockets in USA are actual Leon paul model so I cannot comment on there quality. If shaking them produces a white light how old are they, is the fixing screw in the socket tight, has the internally plugs screws ever been tightened. Is the fault in the blade not the body wire. If the socket is worn and the plug comes out of the socket on the foil it needs replacing.

Eventually the wire will fail depending on useage,storage conditions and local humidity.

Electric sabres are by definition younger they have not been round so long. The break time to get a white light which is often ignored is much longer than the break time for foil. Barry Paul M.D. Leon Paul

[SJCFU#2]

In can confirm that some copies of Leon Paul sockets are not as reliable as the originals. I have seen bayonet sockets with internal resistance that could be measured in kiloohms.

My biggest complaint with Leon Paul body cords has generally been with the two-prong and three-prong plugs. The plastic web that connects the pins must twist every time the plug is used, and eventually it breaks. The only repair at that point is to replace the entire pin assembly.