A4 events?

[Victor]

Poking around at AskFRED, I see that the upcoming Poujardieu in San Marcos has preregistered just enough As, Bs and Cs in epee to make it an A4 event (assuming everyone shows up). Should make for good final bracket activity.

So my question to you: How many tournaments in the United States -- organized by local divisions or sections, not the annually scheduled national events at the main USFA site -- commonly draw enough participants to make the A4 minimum standards?

[whtouche]

I believe the Pomme De Terre, in the new england division, was an epee A4 last year.
I think this happens with consistency, but I can't be sure.

[edew]

All the open mixed epee (and most foil) events in the PCS circuit series are A4s. At the local level, some of the Bay Cups may become an A4 within a few years.

[DHCJr]

The majors of the Pacific Coast Sectionals Circuit have always been A4 in Epee for at least the last 10 years and at least A2 in the other two weapons for men. Those are the Duel in the Dessert hosted by the Nevada division and the Long Beach Invitational hosted by the Orange Coast Division. All the circuits are run by the local divisions and all are well attended hosted by Hawaii, Central Califormia and North Coast. The others are growing, so you may see them as A4 also.

The monthly tournaments have been A2, except once for the last three years in Epee. There will be another one this Sunday.

[The0ne]

the Poujardieu cut the registration fees in half for A rated fencers. . . Maybe that helped

[Jarentz]

I'm headed to the Pouj this weekend, and seeing the pre-registration
there's like 13 "A" Epee fencers signed up
and only one "A" Foil fencer

I fence in mostly out west; AZ CA NM or TX and typically the only foil tournaments I've seen achieve the A4 status for foil are NACs and "Duel in the Desert"

Now the funny part is when you look at the USFA membership stats (which were posted here a while back) there are 211 A-ranked Foil fencers in the US and only 116 A's in Epee.
so where are all the A's? East coast?

[corinna2u]

I'm curious about the Crescent City Open in New Orleans. I heard that 'A' fencers fence free. Does it normally become an A4 in foil?

[westcoastsabre]

Supposedly the 2002Remenyik was an A4 in epee, though I cannot personally confirm or deny this.

And I think there are more A4's in epee because the foil fencers are more spread out then the epee fencers. And because of the nature of epee Vs. Foil. In Epee one gains much more from bouts then one does with foil, thus a foil fencer might be more apt to stay at the salle and take a lesson while an epee fencer would be more apt to drive 300 miles to a tournament to get in some good bouts.

[nahouw]

Originally posted by Victor

So my question to you: How many tournaments in the United States -- organized by local divisions or sections, not the annually scheduled national events at the main USFA site -- commonly draw enough participants to make the A4 minimum standards?

This is a very interesting question that you have. As a member of the tournament committee of the NJ Division, I have kept statistics on our tournaments for the last 3 years. We offer at least 50 different competitions per year, and in only slightly less than half of these we are able to award any classifications (the vast majority of those competitions offering classsifications are junior qualifer events).

We have over 900 members in our division, which is approximately 6 percent of all USFA members, approximately 80% which are junior/cadet fencers..

In the competitions that we are able to award classificastions, the highest is a C. We are not able to have higher classsified competitions, because generally, once the fencers in our division get a C rating, they migrate to the Metro Division, and cease coming to our competitions, in effect, not helping and developing the grass roots support that our sport needs.

I think that the last time that our division had an A4 competition, that it had to be about 20 years ago.

[oiuyt]

Of course if no other C+ fencers are there why should they bother to come to the competitions? Up-and-coming fencers are likely to view tournaments as, among other things, training opportunities. Not noted for altruistic tendancies, the situation you describe seems to offer little incentive for a young A fencer to participate.

Incidently, remember that junior qualifiers now CAN award classificiations. Even at the cadet and below agegroups that's true as long as the event is at least a C1.

-B :)

[swordsen]

About the only way to get As and Bs to attend tournament is to guarantee that other As and Bs will be there. So you need to get one or two who will come becasue they are friends, they owe you, or you have pictures of them from the last NAC with a small furry animal and a bottle of tequila.

[oiuyt]

Speaking from personal experience, there ARE additional ways (for example last year I drove 4ish hours (each way) to Vermont for sabre tournaments not because I expected high level competition but because they have a nice relaxed atmosphere and I enjoy fencing the people there (and I could also fence foil that was at an appropriate level for me at the same time). No furry animals or tequila required.).

Most of the time this is true though. There's only so much time to go around among competitions. If it's a decision between a weak competition that doesn't help further training and actually ahving a weekend off for the first time in a month and a half, skipping out ends up being awfully tempting.

-B :)

[DHCJr]

oiuyt is absolutely right. I gave an example the Orange Coast Division. As of July 1st, 2003, we have 121 members. There are only 10 smaller divisions. In the first 3 local competitions, not including the Long Beach Invitational, we gave out 16 clasifications. That includes multiple A's and B's. How can we give out so many for a small division? It is exactly as oiuyt says, people enjoy going because of the relaxed atmosphere. Most of the people at the tournaments are not from our division, but if given a choice, they forgo the big division and its contensions and politics and go to Orange Coast. They know they are well run tournaments, no one sits around long between rounds. The directs are set up quickly. There is no calling for a bout committee for every little thing.

Find out why they go to tournaments at Metro. If it is for the competition, you will need to find a way to get some better fencers to come. How about a discount for A's. If it is something else, see if you can do it better.

[Victor]

update: From what I've been told, the Pouj epee event fell short by one A-rated fencer of being an A4. I guess someone overslept Sunday morning, huh?

[klauver]

When will we be able to subsidize A's & B's so that we can build a strong base that we can use to spread throughout the country. We instituted the D's & E's hoping to provide a better progression for students, similar to Karate, but we are still stifling them with a glass ceiling at the "D & C" level.

[swordsen]

There isn't a glass ceiling. Just in large parts of the country if you want to try and get an A or a B you have to be willing to travel to do it. Which I frankly do not find to be a bad thing. I wish the A's & B's would come to more local events not becasue many peopel would beat them to get thier ratings, but merely so that peopel could see what it is like to fence them. Too many people think see Cs as the top because they never fence anyone better.

[klauver]

Unfortunately, the cost of travel for a few A's & B's is a lot cheaper than having the hoards travel to NYC and San Jose for a taste of greatness.

[Victor]

That "ceiling" is meant to be broken.

Our rated competition structure, although not perfect, does jive with a lot of other activities in life.
i.e. you might have all the natural talent in the world to do something, but unless you can afford to spend the resources (time, money, energy, etc.), the upper-tier, "elite" levels simply can't pull you up to play with the big boys. You've got to do it on your own. ("But what about sponsors and scholarships?" Acquiring sponsorship of some sort is still very much your own responsibility as well.)

Fair? No, not "fair," especially if it seems that circumstances conspire to keep you from attaining those resources. We probably could improve the process somewhat. But (shrug) that's the way life is.

So, yeah, traveling hundreds of miles to fence at an A competition sucks for a lot of us. It also serves as another filter to identify the truly comitted.

[JEC]

I taped the most of the final 8 bouts. Tommi Hurme barely lost to John Moreau. Daniel Rees and Robert Reed were in 3rd place.

[klauver]

Victor said: unless you can afford to spend the resources (time, money, energy, etc.), the upper-tier, "elite" levels simply can't pull you up to play with the big boys. You've got to do it on your own.

Unfortunately, you're right. that's one of the few negatives of living in a capitalist market, you have to have the money to play. I stopped fencing when I was 23 because I couldn't afford to fence any more. I have just started back and am loving every minute of it, but I am 47 and will never be able to "follow my dreams." Now that I have enough money and time to travel and equip myself it too late.

But it is still fun and I can't beleive how quickly the skills are coming back! To all of you "ex-fencers" come on back!