JO's Question

[The0ne]

Originally posted by DHCJr
But for your lame be careful. I once worked a tournament where a whole club had the most beautiful FELT lettering on their lames. Know and understand the rules and make sure whoever does it does also.

Also make sure they understand size is important. They must be between 8 and 10 cm tall (approximately 3 1/8" to 4")

D'oh!!!!! I did mine with stencil paint, and it worked out fine. . .

[edew]

And depending on who the referee is, don't scribble your name with a sharpie pen. The point is that the name has to be visible to people at a reasonable distance from you. And it has to be in blue (except for names on dark blue lames, in which case black would have to do).

[dekko]

All this sounds great but I will bring us back to the original question, will the armourers be there the night before to start checking equipment?

[The0ne]

Ron Herman said he was going to be the Head Armorer for the J.O.'s. I know Joe and Ted will be there also as well as some others. They will all want to have control the night before. I will contact Ron and tell him of your concerns.

I think that means yes.

[DHCJr]

No, that means I will check. They want to have it, not that they will have it. It depends on the site and the USFA.

[The0ne]

close enough

[oiuyt]

Originally posted by KShan5[PrFC]
What sort of rating do you need to ref at a NAC?

Depends a LOT on what type of NAC. A 5 means that you've demonstrated the ability to referee at the level of fencing expected in the first round of pools of a Div I NAC. A 3 means demonstrated proficiency at the level found in the round of 32 DE's of a Div I NAC, a 2 means demonstrated proficiency in the round of 8 of a Div I NAC.

If you are only trying to be hired for a youth NAC or a D2/3 NAC it's considerably easier than for a D1 NAC. These events are used in part as training events for up-and-coming referees and you can get hired to work them before you have gotten to the level where you've earned the right (and possibly before you have the ability to) work a Div I NAC. Fencing requires training and practice, so does fencing officiating.

Most of the information that you're likely to need to answer similar questions can be found on the FOC website (linked through the committees link in the menu on the USFA website).

-B :)

[oiuyt]

Originally posted by DHCJr
That is one of the contentions between Armorers and Referees. If you compare the Armorers and the referees and their are more referees, you will find there is more total international experience on the armory staff then the referees. Of the top of my head, the Armorers for J.O.'s have worked at 7 Olympics between them and I would hate to guess the number of World Championships, Pam-Am's etc.

You have Joe and Ted who have worked at least 3 Olympics each getting paid less than someone who has never worked an international event.

And one of the counter contentions is that an entry-level armorer who is working his/her first big event, and that largely due to knowing the head tech or someone that the head tech will listen to vouch for them, gets paid more that a highly qualified referee who has been officiating for years and can be used for nearly the entire tournament (although not necesarily the finals (or in the case of less than a Div I event, up to and including the gold medal bout perhaps)).

Until referees actually have a usable system for evaluating relative quality there's no way to differentiate world class (literally) from just getting started. Should Joe and Ted get paid the same as the level 1 refs? Yes. Should a first-timer get paid more than a level 3 ref? No. It's a compromise solution that sort of works out mostly fairly in most cases.

Want to get pay grades that more accurately reflect the contribution that various armorers provide to the event? Then get more armorers to agree to either work into the level 1, level 2, level 3 system that is currently in place or come up with another equivalent that is acceptable to enough armorers to become a standard. Of course that would have to include satisfying the guild vs. trade union vs. independents cliques that currently exist. Probably easier to be satisfied with the status quo.

In point of fact the compensation levels for referees and non-referee officials were worked out separately. The USFA took the money from reducing the per diems paid to all officials (dropped from $40/day to $20/day) plus the anticipated additional revenue from the entry fee raise and divided it into two pots (75%/25%). The larger pot was divvied up among the various expected numbers of referees of each level to come up with their game fee scheme while the smaller pot was divided among the expected number of non-referee officials (BC, armorers, medical staff, etc.). Because non-referee officials don't have a convenient scheme for evaluation of quality it was a convenient fiction to assume that everyone in that category is worth the same amount. The game fee for non-referee officials worked out to $75/day (in addition to the $20/day per diem). Referees have the graduated scale that has previously been mentioned ($20/day for 6-10's, $45/day for 4/5's, $65/day for 3's, $100/day for 1/2's). FOC reps and international A/B referees are paid at the rate of 1/2's. Once the rates were worked out it was observed that the division of the pots left the non-referees at a rate that was near, but not at, the top of the referee payscale and it was decided that that was good enough to mean that further tweaking wasn't required. There wasn't ever a decision to slot armorers in between a 2 and a 3 referee, it just worked out that way. Most referees would prefer to referee than armor, most armorers would prefer to armor than referee. Slight differences in pay between the two categories is unlikely to change that.

-B :)

[DHCJr]

Oiuyt, very good point that I agree with. I have pushed and would like to see certification for Armorers go forward. The problem is there are too many who want to be handed a rating, the highest of course, without being tested. What I said was a prod. I agree the ones with little or no experience, which we had some last weekend are paid the same or more than a referee who has paid his dues over many years.

For me, the money doesnn't matter. I went down to Palm Springs as a volunteer, just to work with Dan, Ron, Murph and the others. I especially liked and agree with the last 2 lines.

I also would like to say neither the Referees, nor the Armorers could do what we enjoy doing without the fencers.

[edew]

I understand the Mattew Porter, a member of the armorers group at Sydney, has no rating or certification or whatever of his armoring skills. So there.

Anyway, I certainly would like to see a rating scale and testing process for bc people managing the tournaments. If they get better at managing the tournaments, there would be fewer re-seeds and quicker turn-around times between bouts and such.

I must say that the BC folks at the San Jose event was very efficient. At least during the Sunday of the second week. There was very little down time, although I did notice that near the end of the day, they were still sending bouts over to the Civic Auditorium (the front of the building) while there were empty strips in the back. It would have been nice to move all the bouts -- the Div I Men's Foil and Junior Women's Epee -- to the Parkside Auditorium in the back so that volunteers can start pulling up the strips in the front.

However, there was nary a delay between the pools and the DE or whenever. (Which, for me, was a bad thing, because I was hoping for the usual long wait as an opportunity to rest some.)

[DHCJr]

None of the U.S. Olympic Team Armorers, nor those who were Head Armorer for the Olympics have been certified. That includes Dan, Joe, Ted, Carl, Matthew and our Team Armorer for Athens, Ron Herman.

Matthew was the U.S. Team Armorer and Ted was the Head Armorer and Dan was the Head Armorer for the Paraolympics. Dan is schedule to be one of the SEMI representatives for Athens. He has already been at more Olympics, than even Peter Westbrook.

I am the only Armorer who has headed a World Championship or an Olympics and they were both only Pentathlon. I supposedly have the highest rating and I am nowhere near their level. The only other Level 1 is Bill Murphy, who was the Commisioner for the 1996 Paraolympic Fencing. Go any where in the world and ask about who the 5 best Armorers and those 5 first names will be the only ones you will hear.

Eric, I am sure you will be at J.O.'s. Why don't you put a bug in the ears of 3 of those above about the advantages of having certification. Those fencers who are going, take advantage of the experience of the Armory staff you will have there. It will be a better and more experienced staff than at any International since the 2000 Olympics with the staff being mostly from the U.S.

[DHCJr]

I received an e-mail back from Ron. They HOPE to have a control on Thursday night around 6 or 7. The problem is how much help they have with setup.

I would suggest people do go and try. If you can also help with the setup, that would be helpful also.