When to start bouting...

[Borrissey]

Greetings everyone....

I have been fencing for about three weeks now, working on footwork, point control, etc. But as a goal-setting tool, I wanted to know how long I should wait and learn the basics before I can hold simple bouts with people in my club?

Granted, I still have to learn the parries and attacks, but is three months a good goal? What basic tools should I have in place before I step onto the piste for the first time?

Cheers.

[Craig]

Your coach will tell you when.

[Rolls]

I used to be of the classical philosphy that the longer you waited to bout the better. That way you would avoid bad habits, etc.

But I know longer believe this to be true. The problem is that most people develop bad habits no matter how long they practice before bouting. So, if you began bouting as soon as possible, then you can work out the bad habits sooner.

Also, I think it makes more sense, to see a practical application of what you learn.

In my opinion, the sooner you start bouting the better. If I were coaching, I think I might try to get my students fencing the first day.

Rolls.

[Tireur]

In my opinion, the sooner you start bouting the better. If I were coaching, I think I might try to get my students fencing the first day.

I strongly disagree with this, I've seen coaches who do this and it's a disaster.

Stick with your coach, he'll tell you when. And, the longer you take lessons the more bout-like they'll become.

[Borrissey]

Oh, my coach said I still have to take more lessons to work on footwork and to learn some attacks/defense techniques. And I agree with her. When I bout, I want to ensure myself I have a chance to do well.

I just wanted to know when people began bouting so I have a rough idea on how to measure my progress and to set a goal.

Cheers.

[Rolls]

Originally posted by Tireur
I strongly disagree with this, I've seen coaches who do this and it's a disaster.

Perhaps the coaching was at fault and not the practice of beginning bouting early.

I would like to know what are the disadvantages seen of starting bouting earlier? I can't think of any.

Rolls.

[Tireur]

I would like to know what are the disadvantages seen of starting bouting earlier? I can't think of any.

Not knowing how to fence could be one of them...

Perhaps the coaching was at fault

It was, by letting them start free-fencing right away.

[Rolls]

Originally posted by Tireur
Not knowing how to fence could be one of them...

That's not really a disadvantage of bouting, now is it? Rather, that comes form a lack of instruction. I'm not saying that you should be competing you first day of fencing, but I don't think there's any harm from bouting earlier.

Rolls.

[Tireur]

Here I go again...

I think I might try to get my students fencing the first day.

Don't you think it would be good for them to at least know how to advance and retreat properly first?

[Rolls]

Don't you think it would be good for them to at least know how to advance and retreat properly first?

Pray tell, what would you teach them their first day if not how to advance and retreat. Generally, most introductions on fencing that I've seen, consist of at LEAST on guard, advance/retreat, and basic rules of each weapon (including RoW). Now, depending on how long the lesson is, you could throw in parries 4 and 6 and the lunge. There you go, you're ready to fence (on a very basic level). I wouldn't suggest letting beginners fence other beginners.

Now, personally, I have this theory that you should let every beginner fence a three point bout of epee with the instructor BEFORE ever having any instruction (that doesn't include a basic introduction to the history and rules). I think it would be the "hook".

Rolls.

[Tireur]

Generally, most introductions on fencing that I've seen, consist of at LEAST on guard, advance/retreat, and basic rules of each weapon (including RoW). Now, depending on how long the lesson is, you could throw in parries 4 and 6 and the lunge. There you go, you're ready to fence

Deliver me, from this fast food society........

[Tireur]

That's not really a disadvantage of bouting, now is it? Rather, that comes form a lack of instruction.

Exactly, you asked what the disadvantage of starting to bout early were. And, a lack of instruction is one of them.

[Rolls]

Exactly, you asked what the disadvantage of starting to bout early were. And, a lack of instruction is one of them.

No, because you can still get instruction, and you're bouting will improve as you get it. On the reverse side, the disadvantage of NOT starting bouting early is experience, which you'll never really be able to make up.

Rolls.

[Tireur]

On the reverse side, the disadvantage of NOT starting bouting early is experience,

Of course, another disadvantage of starting immediatly is not having any fencing skills to begin with. So, instead of learning, you're doing nothing but developing bad habits. Mimicking what you've seen in the movies instead of actually learning something.

[whtouche]

I'm all for bouting early, and feel no need to be dragged into this arguement.
Tireur, do you think that irreparable harm can be done to one's fencing if you start bouting early?
If not...then you have no arguement. If so, then your arguement is false.

[Craig]

Originally posted by Rolls
I would like to know what are the disadvantages seen of starting bouting earlier? I can't think of any.

When you bout, you try to win. In novices, this often encourages behaviour that will work at the novice level, but get you killed at higher levels. The bad habits get ingrained since they "work" and provide additional resistance to change.

In addition, trying to bout before mastering the balance and technique necessary puts you and your sparring partner(s) at risk. The biggest and most painful bruises are inflicted by novices who don't have a good concept of distance and how hard to hit. By having the novices bout too soon, you're setting up a situation where an injury becomes more probable. (Either due to loss of balance causing a strain or to unsafe actions.)

You don't go doing full contact sparring your first day of karate, kendo or judo, you shouldn't in fencing either.

Cheers,
Craig

[jBirch]

Hey all,

Open bouting is a bad idea until the student has achieved a level of competency in the basics. The reason for this is that they only work on what seems to work for them in bouts and not on what will work for them in future bouts. Further, they don't see the advantage to technical improvements and so generally degenerate to "what always works for me".

Directed bouting, on the other hand, is a highly valuable teaching tool. Bouting is really the only way to get a feel for distance, timing and the give and take of a frank exchange. You might want to think of this as more like total freedom of decision drills rather then true bouting. On that note, students in a salle should never be "Open Bouting". The coach should always be talking to each about tactical and technical improvements that can only be seen in a bout like setting. They should be working with each other to identify and rectify weaknesses in their game with the goal of improving competitive performance.

Finally, I agree with Rolls on letting every beginner bout a couple of points with the instructor before serious lessons begin. Part of this is that, unless you try this once, you never know WHY you are learning what you are and so the lessons don't sink in.

Hope this helps.

[Tireur]

Wrong. There is a middle ground. If not "irreparable harm", it can set you back so far, in terms of unlearning bad habits. It can also be a frustrating influence, because, God knows, if we don't start winning right away, it's time to find something new.

[Tireur]

Part of this is that, unless you try this once, you never know WHY you are learning what you are and so the lessons don't sink i

Funny, they sunk in with me and just about everyone I was learning wiht. And my students. Most, anyway.

[WoodsideDr]

I find myself espousing a fairly moderate perspective on this one. I agree with those who suggest you should look to your coach for guidance on this one. He or she knows you and your skills better than any of us. I do believe that there are things you can only learn--and learn from--in the heat of a bout. I like the combination of practice bouting followed by a lesson that addresses the fencer's actual experience with the bout.