When to start bouting...

[jBirch]

Tireur,

One of my fellow coaches put it this way:

"If you're learning to fish, how long should you wait until you put a line in the water?"

Take it easy.

[Tireur]

If you're learning to fish, how long should you wait until you put a line in the water?"

Perhaps until you know how to bait it

[jBirch]

Tireur,

Arguable. I remember the first few times I went fishing, my father baited my hook and gutted the fish for me. I had so much fun, all I wanted to do was go fishing.

At any rate, you don't need to know all the intricasies of different bait, the type of fish, the best places to find the fish, how to gut the fish, the proper, FIE approved casting technique, how to sit in the boat, how to operate the boat, the use of a sinker, the depth of the fish, how to operate a fish finder, etc... before you can go out fishing.

There is most certainly a core set of basic skills without which you can't participate in the sport at all. After that, it becomes a matter of participating in the sport and getting better at it as you go along. I believe, quite strongly, that my goal as a coach is to promote a love of the game first, then technical skills that make you good at it, second.

You're assuming that everyone who comes in the door is as passionate about fencing as you are. In my experience, this is not the case. In kendo, I remember learning to get the gear on then going out and getting thrashed. That made me want to get better so that I didn't go out and get thrashed next time. Boxing was the same way. I wanted to hit the opponent but I couldn't get them. So I learned how. It was important for me to get a taste of the sport (and my incompetence at it) so that I really wanted to get better and would really apply the lessons I learned in class to the practical setting of the bout.

Here's a different analogy: ever learn to dance? Did the instructor sit you down and make you go over the components of the box step before you ever touched a partner or was it important that you learned the steps with a partner?

Take it easy.

[Elfdaughter]

Of course, if you do fencing with the SCA (Like me!) you are taught the basics in one long session, then told to go and get on with it, practising. I had my first lesson on Sunday (I could not MOVE on Monday!) and I learnt the basic stuff, but I learnt parries,footwork (I'm doing point control now by myself), and at the end of the THREE HOUR session, we had a sort of mini bout - just me and him, so I could put everything I'd learned into practise! Talk about a crash course!! However, I am going to the Rent-a-don, which is like a course in fencing over three days. That will be SO cool!!

[Fechter1]

OK, time for my .02

Giving somone who is not properly trained a weapon and putting them on the strip is recipe for disaster. And I'm not talking about the increased injury risks. I'm talking purely fencing. Bouting (in club) is all about figuring out how to apply the lessons to actual bouting situations, what works, how it works, when it works, why it works, etc. Without direction, a fencer is much more likely to develop "bad habits", which might work best for him/her at that time, but which will require months, sometimes even years, to correct.

The other extreme, proper lessons until the fencer is technically "perfect", and then throwing him/her out on the strip can equally as damaging, albeit in a different way.

Therefore, a balance needs to be struck between proper training (i.e. lessons) and bouting.

My method (and that of my coach, i.e. how I was taught), lessons only until the student has reached some minimum of proficiency (in our case, basic footwork, simple attacks, and parries). Then you can slowly start giving them bouting experience, under carefully controlled conditions at first, then slowly (over the course of a few months) relaxing the controls and moving them towards free bouting.

This is the basis of what I call my 'bouting lessons', which re essentially controlled bouts between me and the student.

Most importantly, every student is different. Some will have a natural flair for the sport, while others will have to labor hard for years before they become proficient on the piste. That's where your coach's experience comes in. Listen to him/her. They know more about the sport than you do (I sincerely hope).

Have fun

[Tireur]

My method (and that of my coach, i.e. how I was taught), lessons only until the student has reached some minimum of proficiency (in our case, basic footwork, simple attacks, and parries). Then you can slowly start giving them bouting experience, under carefully controlled conditions at first, then slowly (over the course of a few months) relaxing the controls and moving them towards free bouting.

Thank you, my philosophy exactly.

[Tireur]

There is most certainly a core set of basic skills without which you can't participate in the sport at all. After that, it becomes a matter of participating in the sport and getting better at it as you go along. I believe, quite strongly, that my goal as a coach is to promote a love of the game first, then technical skills that make you good at it, second

I don't see how this puts us at odds on this issue......

I fully understand that not everyone is willing to put in the months of footwork etc. that I did. And, I have adapted my teaching to fit this. But, I do NOT believe they need to start bouting as soon as they walk in the door either.

[Elfdaughter]

I understand what you mean... but that's just the way the SCA works. My instructor gave me the basics, set himself as a target, let me take a few 'swings' at him, then we did a sort of bout...one thing I forgot to mention, though, was that I was armed with a foil, he wasn't. He used his hands! Oh, and he made sure I knew all the rules etc before hand - I had to wade through two files of rules and regulations, then we took a look at the blades, then he went through everything with me, until I could pretty much do everything, then we 'bouted' - if you can call it that!!

[Borrissey]

Thanks everyone for the information and your opinions. I didn't mean to cause such a lively debate. But I'm going to shoot for working on the footwork, parries and attacks and trying them out on the instructor.

I'm shooting for my first solo trip to the piste [sans instructor] in March.

I have a passion for this sport [fordified by taking lessons and score keeping at numerous meets and tournaments] that I want to get out there and try my hand on the piste.

But I'm learning the basics and proper form now so I don't have to go back later and break these bad habits.

I was just curious how long people took lessons before going out and bouting [is that even the right usage of the word?]

Cheers.

[Rolls]

Originally posted by Craig
When you bout, you try to win. In novices, this often encourages behaviour that will work at the novice level, but get you killed at higher levels. The bad habits get ingrained since they "work" and provide additional resistance to change.

I would like to think that if you have your beginners fencing experienced and more advanced fencers that they wouldn't be allowed to get points with the "novice" tactics. Really, I would think that they have trouble getting points at all.

In addition, trying to bout before mastering the balance and technique necessary puts you and your sparring partner(s) at risk. The biggest and most painful bruises are inflicted by novices who don't have a good concept of distance and how hard to hit. By having the novices bout too soon, you're setting up a situation where an injury becomes more probable. (Either due to loss of balance causing a strain or to unsafe actions.)

Personally, I don't see the danger. Of course, I'm assuming that they are wearing proper safety equipment (mask, etc). I DO know that I have gotten just as many if not more and worse bruises from experienced (albeit out of control) fencers at competitions. Novices, I usually find have trouble touching me.

You don't go doing full contact sparring your first day of karate, kendo or judo, you shouldn't in fencing either.

I wouldn't say that fencing in any way is a contact sport. Actually, in fencing, it's a penalty to make physical contact with your opponent. But to use your metaphor, how about boxing? I can't imagine that you would get boxing lessons without going into the ring the first day. In my opinion, boxing produces much more competent practitioners than karate, kendo, judo, etc.

Rolls.

[npkeith]

I know that my coach uses directed bouting as both a teaching and diagnostic tool. He runs an 8 week (once a week) "intro to fencing" course that has students picking up a weapon on the 3rd or 4th class. Bouting usually starts at the 6th (sometimes earlier). The teaching is obvious - footwork, distance etc. He also uses line judges so that students start developing an eye for the actions (He often has other students direct as well.) I believe that you can't learn how to play a game without playing the game. Coach has a habit of yellow-carding beginners for pulling in their back hand in to cover target area (in foil of course - in epee he just hits it - you stop pulling your hand in after the second or third time)

As for diagnostic uses - Hmm, this class seems afraid to step in and hit someone. Time for some intention drills. OK, they have their 4 and 6, time to start on 7 and 8 (rare in the intro class). Or - point control seems good, but their distance is off, so they aren't actually landing their touches, time for more distance drills etc.

What I'm trying to say is that bouting under the guidance of a good instructor is a good thing. (even his warmup after stretches - fence 2 people to 5 points, you have five minutes, go! -is under his hawklike gaze, so seriously bad habits (advancing in a count of 2!) are nipped in the bud). I think that handing out foils, masks and gloves on day 1 may not be a great idea, but at the same time, it might help make up the minds of some undecided students (this is FUN!)

[Tireur]

Novices, I usually find have trouble touching me.

It's not that they score on you. It's that they don't know when to stop. They (some) tend to slash (even with foil) away after they've been hit.

[Prometheus]

There are some other complications that are not intimately tied to pedagogical theory. Namely, what type of the program is the fencer in? Is the student in a gym class, a college club, an after school program, paid group lessons, a private club, a competitive elite program? Does the student have a personal coach? Is there a volunteer coaching staff? Is there a more experienced fencer supervising?

Club resources, unfortunately, play a big part in the program. If there is only one volunteer coach and the club meets once a week things will be different then if every fencer takes 3 hours of lessons a week privately.

Not necessarily in the way that is thought of either. In my experience, college clubs tend to spend a lot more time doing group footwork and drills then private ones. In a private situation it is more commonly, more of a lesson/sparring situation.

I think that the intent of the student is also an issue. If someone is a recreational fencer they have different needs then a competitive one. Perhaps by staying affiliated with the club they will be inspired to become competitive, but until then I don’t think it is inappropriate to treat a completive program different from a recreational one. Fencers who come a couple times a month to a college club may not be the best target for the ultra traditional 6 months before touching a weapon system, or a very intense cardiovascular training for that matter. For college clubs that could man fewer fencers which can lead to less funding or even the end of the club.

[Delmont]

Hm, interesting analogy with karate. I haven't taken that art yet but I have studied many others, including boxing, tae kwan do (traditional), Akido, Judo and Muy Tia and the only one of those that we did not spar or have a defence line was Judo. All the rest had you fighting or in the case of Akido, defending yourself on the first day. This was after instruction. Fencing I think can be done the same way. Show them the basics, have them practice them until they know what they are. Then show them why they are learning this. In other words bout. This is the way its done at my club, they get to bout on thier first or second day, against one of the better people at the club. Then we discuss what tehy did correctly, what they did wrong, and work on fixing it. Then more practice, then another bout. Constand application, e.i. bouting, keeps people wanting to learn and practice and keeps them interested. It also depends on the person. Some people are ready to bout after a quick run through of the basics because the learn better in an application situation. I'm like this. Others need the practice otherwise they are not comfortable in the bout because they "don't know" what they are doing. Different strokes.

[Namir]

I started Boughting My first day and obviously I did not have footwork down to a science. But I did not stop the second day. I hink fencing the first day is very inportant if not simply to keep people intrested and I Fence much better the students fencing for the same amount of time who did not begin boughting early. I think it gave me a more practicle way to translate things and then I had my coach on the side of the strip to help make any corrections I needed.
I can see why some people may not go to tournaments but just drilling?
For crying out loud! Brazillian soccer players did not get good at soccer by drilling all day. They got good by playing, learning somthing new, play again.
That way they can do somthing with that otherwise pointless crap they just learned.

[Tireur]

For crying out loud! Brazillian soccer players did not get good at soccer by drilling all day. They got good by playing, learning somthing new, play again.

Well, that settles it then.............

[Craig]

A lot of this depends on the definition of "bouting" or "sparring" used. Tournament style "fence to win" bouting is much different than controlled bouting, bouting lessons (match up a coach or high level fencer with the newbie to give them a "good" bouting experience), and directed (directed=micro managed/observed), etc.

What I was arguing against was the "give 'em a weapon and let them at it" school of thought, which generates a lot of stuff that must be "unlearned" later.

Craig

[Rolls]

Originally posted by Craig
A lot of this depends on the definition of "bouting" or "sparring" used. Tournament style "fence to win" bouting is much different than controlled bouting, bouting lessons (match up a coach or high level fencer with the newbie to give them a "good" bouting experience), and directed (directed=micro managed/observed), etc.

What I was arguing against was the "give 'em a weapon and let them at it" school of thought, which generates a lot of stuff that must be "unlearned" later.

Craig

Well, like everything in fencing, I guess it just depends on the context fo the situation. : )

Nicholas