Political discussion on Israeli fencers barred from tourney in Aqaba

[jeff]

pkt: the Saudi government and former Iraqi government gave very substantial cash rewards to families of "martyred" suicide bombers, so I don't shed any tears for them. Explain to me, please, why you seem to show more concern for them (at least, based on the amount of writing of their plight) than on the victims of terrorism?

I brought up the Asian nationalities' close kinship because you repeatedly bring up that of the Arabs and Jews in the Middle East. It seems a little close to a "you all look the same" argument, which isn't very nice. We are all brothers (whether we have an epicanthic fold or not, for example). FWIW, some of the most xenophobic remarks I've ever heard were by Chinese, Koreans and Japanese describing one another.

Your points about colonialist (the UK) distribution of lands into countries are well taken. Iraq probably should never have been a single country. Lawrence spurred Arab nationalism where none previously existed. Countries, and even kingdoms were created where there was no national identity. I still haven't figured out why Jordan isn't considered "the Palestinian state".

Be careful with the claim of disproportionate political power of Jews. In some hands (I'm not saying yours!) that leads directly to racist lies about Jews running both the US and the world (The Saudis are republishing the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion"). It's obvious that Arab and Islamic interests are far more powerful and influential in the world, in numbers, economic clout, holding the entire world for ransom based on oil, dominating the agenda of the UN (remember the passage of "Zionism = racism"), and so forth

[deadly lefty]

Originally posted by gojujay
A true competitor wouldn't allow the politics of a participant's COUNTRY to influence his willingness to compete against that PERSON. How many people agree with their POLITICAL leadership 100% of the time. Quite frankly, anyone who would refuse competition is probably looking for a way out that can save face. Black cards all around. cowards

well people in the USA can express there feelings against the government and not get shot or killed this isnt as much in Russia as it used to be but we arent as free as the USA citizens

[faito anto]

Black JEEBUS (JESUS?)

You are oxy-moronic. And this is why:
You claim to be a supporter of Indigenous peoples - native americans and native australians for example.
I myself am a big supporter of these people. This is consistent with my Zionism.
Who are the indigenous people of the land of israel? The Jews!
Ask Jesus how many palestinians he saw in his life?
Ask him how many mosques he saw?
None- Mosques didn't come till 700 years after Jesus (Jeebus?)
The Dome of the Rock is built on the ruins of the Jewish Temple.
Still, Israeli govt respects the right of Muslims to worship there.

Unfortunaely, Jews don't receive the same rights in Arab countries.

I don't know about America, but I do know about the situation in Australia. In Australia, the Jewish community leaders have very good relationship with the Aboriginal leadership. Aboriginal land rights is very consistent with Zionism. Many jewish lawyers help with Aborginal land rights. Recently, a jewish charity sponsored an Aborginal doctoral student of sociology on a scholarship to Israel.
She said Australia could learn a lot from Israel on they way it integrates many people of different cultures and refugees from all over the world.
Israel has accepted refugees from all over the world on one proviso - that they have NO wish to destroy the state. Not too much to ask is it?


Now to PKT, and his concern that jews are running the owrld.
I wish! I wish!

The number one commodity in the world for the 20th century, and the i think for the 21st century is by FAR, by far, OIL!
The Jews have none, the Arabs have the largest share!

As for lots of Jews in Hollywood - yes there are.
But what kind of Jews are these? Most aren't really Jews- they are extremely assimilated, and most are left wingers, and few are zionists or wish to identify with being jewish unless it is convenient. Most Hollywood 'Jews' do nothing for the Jewish people.
Really, they are creative and talented americans of jewish descent, rather than Jews per se.
They know very little about their culture and heritage, and most don't care that they know little.

As for the UN, its record as an anti-Israel organisation speaks for itself. It is unfortnately controlled by despots from totalitarian countries.

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

PKT wrote, among other things:

Originally posted by pkt
That said, the US's support to the Arabs has never been any where near the USD 7 BILLIONS per annum to the Isareli government.

The basis of politics:
Think globally but act locally.

I'm sure you realise about the clout of the Jewish voters in the US. This is a statement of fact, faito, it is not meant to be anti-Jewish. All you have to do is to look at the names shown during the credits of any blockbuster movies and guess what you'll see.

Look at the political landscape of the USA. Bewtween the Arab people and the Jewish people, who has bigger clout? Who's the Mayor of New York City?
PK

This was responded to by faito anto thusly:

Now to PKT, and his concern that jews are running the owrld.
I wish! I wish!

(faito anto then elaborated on the topic)

FA: you are either deliberately misunderstanding PKT, or doing something else which is equally marring to you character.

PKT stated that jews have more political clout in USA than arabs do. That does not mean that he said that they run the world. Do not put statements in the mouths of others, or be sloppy with the reading of other peoples statements.

Peter Gustafsson

[faito anto]

Peter, the implication is that since USA is lone superpower, and Jews dominate the USA, they therefore run the world.

If countering this perception with a bit of respect mars my character in your eyes, this says more about you than it does about me.

Good Day to you!

Originally posted by PeterGustafsson [/i]
Hi!

PKT wrote, among other things:


This was responded to by faito anto thusly:

(faito anto then elaborated on the topic)

FA: you are either deliberately misunderstanding PKT, or doing something else which is equally marring to you character.

PKT stated that jews have more political clout in USA than arabs do. That does not mean that he said that they run the world. Do not put statements in the mouths of others, or be sloppy with the reading of other peoples statements.

Peter Gustafsson

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by pkt
I was thinking of the LIVLIHOOD of the family members of the terrorist/suicide bomber who in most cases do not know, in most cases that I'm aware of, ahead of time that their kin was going to commit the ultimate protest.

How about them? How do they make their living? Do you think that by removing their sole means of livlihood is good to make them think better of the Israeli Government -

It's sort of like the Columbine killers: if you as a parent are so detached and uninvolved in your children's lives that you don't know when they have gone psycho, maybe you need just this sort of a wake-up call.

In many cases, the parents of suicide bombers may not know that their son or daughter planned to become a "martyr", but you can be sure that they know he or she is a fanatic Israeli-hater. If they haven't prevented that, and if they haven't dissented in the creation of fanatic Israeli-haters by their schools, their media, their politics, their associations, their society in general, then they are de facto accomplices nevertheless...just as, say, American parents who are passive KKK members and supporters are de facto accomplices when their kids burn crosses or lynch blacks...

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by pkt
The Arab hostility towards the USA is easier to understand: "the friend of my enemy is my enemy" which is the flip side of "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

Too simplistic, I'm afraid, or else either Iraq or Iran would have decided that Israel and the US were their "friends", for example. Sometimes, the "new" enemy just doesn't yield the visceral hatred needed to overcome the antipathy toward the "old" one...

[faito anto]

I'm not sure what is reported in your respective countries, but the Israeli govt does not demolish houses of suicide bombers' 'willy-nilly.'

The family needs to have been involved with or at least aware (and gave no warning) of the terrorist attack.

[Soldier]

Originally posted by Inquartata
Too simplistic, I'm afraid, or else either Iraq or Iran would have decided that Israel and the US were their "friends", for example. Sometimes, the "new" enemy just doesn't yield the visceral hatred needed to overcome the antipathy toward the "old" one...

I think the idea is still quite accurate, but you get inconsistencies when a country is the friend of of your friend...and the friend of your enemy...and the enemy of another friend...you get the idea.

[MikeHarm]

Is that in straight donations to them, or in loans or a combination thereof? Does it include the military hardware and support or just cash?

Originally posted by pkt


That said, the US's support to the Arabs has never been any where near the USD 7 BILLIONS per annum to the Isareli government.


PK

[faito anto]

Yes in PKT's figure,

much of that money is actually

a) loan guarantees

b) loans to (only) purchase US exports, mostly security hardware.

And I would say that the Arab aid is roughly equivalent - and for that the Arab states still hate the USA and export terrorism (and of course oil, the great polluter) to the USA.

[Ocker]

With the current situation as it is in the Middle East, maybe it's time to revive this thread.

Faito is an interesting character. Quite articulate, but extremely defensive and quick to insult anyone who doesn't entirely agree with his point of view and accuse them of being anti-semitic (whatever that means). If you happen to be German of course that's even worse, whatever your ancestors did or didn't do-and let's not forget that not everybody who was murdered in the camps was jewish (although I will accept before the inevitable response that probably the vast majority were) and you don't necessarily have to be a Zionist if you do happen to be jewish.

Also, one of the posters above mentioned the Haggana-well for sure Israel is NOT (capitals for the benefit of Faito) a terrorist state, but it most definitely IS a state founded on terrorism so maybe Faito could re-arrange the following words for my benefit; pot, kettle, black.

Faito Anto uses the same nom de plume on more than one forum, so I'll put the same question to him here as I have elsewhere. If your country is fighting for its very survival and surrounded by homicidal maniacs, what is a fit young guy like you with a couple of years judo experience under his belt doing skulking on a surfboard at the University of Western Australia???

I know, it's all a big secret, you're serving your country in other ways...

[Inquartata]

He hasn't posted anything in almost two and a half years. I suspect you are addressing the wind. ( But not the Chaotic Wind. )

[MikeHarm]

It'll be interesting to see what happens when the oil runs out.

[Miglin]

It's stupid conflicts like this that always happen that make me wonder why religion still exists at all.

Just my two cents.

[Inquartata]

It'll be interesting to see what happens when the oil runs out.

Yeah, but HOW will we see? We'll all be too busy foraging for scraps in the wasteland and fighting off the Lord Humongous and his dogs of war.

[Phaeton]

If Israel didn't exist there'd still be violence in the Middle East. Much of the area lacks any infrastructure, and it's hard to have a stable region when people are constantly economically depressed bereft of a solid education. Religious or not that's a recipe for disaster.

Israel is a hot commodity because the land it is on was made valuable by the original "Israeli" settlers (chalutzim). Israel for a while was pretty much a rather useless malaria infested hunk of dirt. The Israeli pioneers came in, with local support, and pulled the land together to make a nation with a lot of resources, agricultural and not. Israel has what it needs in place to prosper, and if I had that land taken from right next to me I'd feel cheated too.

Jewish and Muslim populations have gotten together splendidly in the past (e.g. running to the Muslims when the Catholics came a-knocking in Spain). The majority want a viable peace. One cannot look at Israel as universally hell-bent on being militarily, aggressive. Israel has a lot of divisions within itself. There is a lot of animosity between the mostly religious right and the more secular left.

If the left were to open serious negotiations at the moment I doubt what good it would do. It's hard to negotiate with someone who's hell-bent on guaranteeing that they want you dead, and will do everything in their power to ensure that happens.

All this for a small amount of land exists to a rather pretend group of individuals who label themselves Palestinians. I might be more understanding of say, Basque Nationalism because they rather recently ceased to be sovereign over a land which they've held since before the Roman Empire came around. It seems like giving Constantinople (Istanbul these days) back to the Greeks, because one day a long time ago it was theirs, makes more sense than forcing a formation of Palestine which belongs to a "group" which never sovereignly held the land.

The tension filled stage is set with two impassioned and partially correct sides to engage in conflict, and the allies to get all worked up.

It ceased being about the two abducted soldiers after the first rocket was fired from Lebanon toward the north of Israel. It then became about destroying an impending threat. They're doing the best they can to surgically target (they haven’t blown up any MAJOR infrastructure yet, bomb the fuel, but leave the depots standing, bomb the airport but leave the air traffic control tower up.). If Israel wanted it could do a lot more damage. Lebanese respond by attacking again to retaliate. It is, was, and will be a brutal cycle.

This has NOTHING to do with the fencer in question. Extremists represent a small part of Jordan’s population, and Israel is sharply divided. He should be allowed to compete; it's frankly quite ridiculous to bar it. I'd like to see the FIE threaten to take some action against Jordan for barring a nation from competing, there should be laws banning it and specified sanctions.

I’m tired…I’ll put more tomorrow…