Where do you hold your grip when pommelling?

[angriff]

I've heard something I find incredible: that there are epeeists who hold the pommel at the very end using only their thumb and the second segment of their index finger. Can anyone confirm this? Also, if this is possible, how can I strengthen my fingers such that I can fence in this fashion? Thirdly, what sort of techniques and tactics should I employ if I were to fence like this?

Any advice is much appreciated. Thanks!

[klauver]

If its a french grip, in foil oe epee, a fencer can hold the grip anyway they wish. A fencer just cannot start with a grip against the bell guard and then "throw" the weapon so that they end up holding onto the pommell.

I can't imagine anyone having enough hand strength to withstand the continuous beats and binds that are so esential in epee. I would love to fence against someone fencing like that!

[damianip]

Originally posted by angriff
I've heard something I find incredible: that there are epeeists who hold the pommel at the very end using only their thumb and the second segment of their index finger. Can anyone confirm this? Also, if this is possible, how can I strengthen my fingers such that I can fence in this fashion? Thirdly, what sort of techniques and tactics should I employ if I were to fence like this?

Any advice is much appreciated. Thanks!

Answer to question one:

Yes, there are, but I've never seen one do that continuously. Pommelers (I'm one) tend to move up and down the grip a bit throughout a bout. However, I tend have the weapon "more pommelled" than my coach, as an example. There are several pommelers at my club, and I think I probably hold it the farthest out. By the way, you can move up and down the grip as long as it doesn't occur during an offensive action.

Answer to question two:

You'll strengthen your fingers by doing it. You'll need to have a relaxed hand to get away with this. You can stengthen your hand with the typical exercises (tennis ball, springy grip thing etc.). A weight attached to broomstick is a great tool for strengthening execises: try to roll the string up with the weight attached and then lower it gently. Use the fingers and not the wrists.

Ultimately, the technique is more about precision and less about strength. You will be at a disadvantage if your blade gets taken and you think you're still holding an ortho.

Answer to question three:

Generally, an absence of blade is a good starting point. Disengages, pecks to your opponent's hand, and second intention set ups are very important. Angulation works a bit better assuming you've got your sense of distance well tuned. Forget trying to muscle your way out of takes. Blade actions have to bit more precisely executed, or you'll get overpowered.

There are other pommelers on this board who are much better than me so hopefully, they'll chime in.

Paolo

[jBirch]

Klauver,

If you fence properly with a french grip in the french style, finger strength is irrelevent. The extra few inches gained by moving your hand down to the pommel gives you the extra reach that you would normally compensate for with strength (opposition, binds, beats, etc...)

Take it easy.

[klauver]

I understand that the point control portion of the french grip is with the thumb and index finger, but then you have to close the remaining fingers on the grip to provide strength. The original poster said the these "epeeists who hold the pommel at the very end using only their thumb and the second segment of their index finger." I assumed that that meant that the remaing three fingers where not on the grip at all!

[jBirch]

Klauver,

Don't forget about the pommel nut: it gives your hand something to close over, even if not all of the fingers are on the grip.

Hope this helps.

[veeco]

Originally posted by angriff
I've heard something I find incredible: that there are epeeists who hold the pommel at the very end using only their thumb and the second segment of their index finger. Can anyone confirm this?

I confirm, this is the way I was taught to hold a French grip, though I sometimes deviate from that, holding my handle somewhere in the middle, if my fingers get tired.

Your description isn't totally accurate however. The thumb and index finger are what holds the handle, at the junction where it meets the pommel. The thumb being on top, and the index being on the bottom, the pommel is cradled in your palm, and the last 3 fingers don't hold much, only when needed do you need to apply pressure with them (i.e. to move your blade around for disengages or takes). It does take some work and practice to feel comfortable holding a weapon this way, which is probably the best way you can "build up strength".

Actually, in terms of strength, you'll find that if your weapon has the right cant and is well balanced, it actually doesn't require that much strength. I found out also lately that bending the tang of my blade down right where the handle meets the pommel makes for a more comfortable grip. You may want to try that, as well as several different degrees of downward cant on your blade to see what works best for you.
In terms of balance, some people just use a heavy pommel, some others actually put lead fishing weights in their handle to make it more heavy. Again, experiment and see what you like best.

Another way you'll sometimes see people holding their weapon is a little more towards the bell guard, with the index finger running alongside the handle, pointing straight at the bellguard. This is useful if you want to emphasize precision of your point, as you can just sort of point your index finger in the direction you want to point your blade in. Downside to this is that it doesn't allow the same finger play and you will not have as tight disengages as with the first method.

[remise]

Veeco, you have just described the way my son fences foil. He has never tried another grip, but is rather insistent that his weapon be balanced just so. He won't trust his weapon to the club armourers, he does it himself.

During bouts, I've seen him change his grip on his weapon. He fences a lot with rather wicked disengages, and I've noticed that when his opponents deal him a rather sharp beat or parry, his fingers are right up against the bell. He told me that this absorbs the force of the parry or beat-attack and allows him to continue a split second later with an action of his own. Hope this helps.