Guys who go for crappy hits in practice.

[The Bayer Hunter]

One thing that really ticks me off is guys who go for (or usually score) crappy hits in practice. It's like they are practicing to be a "crappy hit specialist" at the expense of everyone else who are trying to become better fencers. They should all be rounded up and put in the same club. We could call it "HRC", the "Hackers' Remise Club", because it's not even fencing at that level.
Arrrrg!

[attila]

No such thing as a crappy hit. It either lands or it doesn't. There are however crappy fencers who can't parry

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"Kill the men, save the women, and by the gods, do not spill the wine"

[Gav]

I don't know if there is such a thing as a "crappy hitter". It's more likely there are people who are perhaps not as good, and therefore awkward to fence. As you get more experienced you tend to fence more skilled opponents more often. Consequently you start to expect a certain reactions to strokes that you pull off. You have to remember that some people may not act in the required manner. It's good experience because it teaches you to keep your head and choose the best course for the opponent at hand.

What ticks me off is people who monopolise a coaches time. These people may only turn up once on a blue moon get a lessona dn then dissapear. These people don't even fence competitively. I'll not mention names. But it's a problem at our club.

[The Bayer Hunter]

No, I'm talking about "scrappy fencing", the tendency during practice to win at any cost instead of trying to do proper techniques to lead to one's improvement as a fencer. Not because they can't do any other hits, but because they just enjoy beating people in practice. This is a mistake. Sure, in a competition, a hit is a hit, but anyone can hit. A really good fencer knows that, in the long run, the ability to make nice touches will separate him from those who can't. So its not an issue of "a hit is a hit", in the long run, it is the quality of the hit that really counts. Especially in practice. You're right in that training with a hack is a good way to improve your reaction to unexpected situations. However, that hack is not going to improve as a fencer, which is bad for everyone around him. Agreed?

[neevel]

I largely agree with Gav. You will encounter awkward, tough-to-fence hacks in competition, so there is some benefit in having one or two to practice against regularly. The key to routinely defeating them usually lies not in figuring out how to out-slop them, but to get very good at controlling the distance and be disciplined about not jumping at every low-percentage hitting opportunity that arises: both of these will also be of use against good, clean fencers as well.

-Dave

[aussie]

The reason fencers get hit in free play bouts in the salle is that inexperienced fencers are unable to control there movements to a fine dexterity. The other reason is that experienced fencers are not sure if the attack is committed or a feint. You will find that fencers who go just for the hit are never found in high level rankings as they are not consistent enough to maintain against a disciplined fencer.

to clarify a discussion earlier:

the rankings of proffesional coaches are,

Master of arms: trained in all three weapons and a master of a three.

Maitre: trained in one weapon only.

Prevot Maitre: a trainee Maitre under the direct supervison and instruction of a Master of arms.

my Coach qualified as a master of arms in the UK in 1949 he was trained by the many master of the time and was the only one to have all the judging panel sign his qualifications.

[The Bayer Hunter]

Dave, what I am talking about is not the benefit having a few hacks in your club, but the fact that the hacks are there not to improve as fencers, but just to win practice bouts. I like to call it "masterbation fencing", a term which describes the kind of fencing done just to satisfy one's ego, not to improve one's fencing ability. The same term can be used to describe what often happens when a male fencer fences a female. The male is stronger and faster, so instead of trying to use techniques they should be working on (and everyone should be working on something), they win the bout using their strength or speed for the sake of "proving" themselves, or avoiding the embarrassment of losing to a girl. Yeah sure, having a few in your club makes you wary that they are out there, but it is more than a benefit/drawback issue. They are working against the spirit of excellence in sport, striving to be a better athlete. These fencers should be labeled as recreational fencers because they are in it to stroke their egos. The problem is that these people mistake their competitive attitude in the club for real competitiveness. But as Aussie said, they will not win in any real competition.

[swordsen]

In this case I must agree with the Bayer Hunter. Didn't think I would when this thread started. too many fencers spend too much time trying to win bouts in practice instead of practicing. If a fencer knows he can beat a clubmate with a certain move it is a waste of his time to use it. He should be working on other moves.
Practice is practice. Any bout won there doesn't really matter.

[Mr_Jones]

I'm in tentative agreement here. I do believe that excellent fencers should fence 'hacks' occasionally. In fact, I believe the best should fence the worst, and the worst should fence the worst, and the best should fence the best, in constant, and varying rotation.

Being hit by a hack means you've left something open, and finding something that doesn't work against a particular fencer means you are not doing it correctly. Varying techniques to your particular opponent is what, I believe, fencing as an athlete is about. Being able to defeat soundly all opponents is the goal.

Of course, I also believe that you should do your best to be helpful to your opponent after a practice bout, no matter what their skill level. Simply saying, "You've gotten better since last week, but you're still dragging your back foot, like you're off balance before you attack, but not before you feint', is common courtesy.

Unfortunately, and I do hate to be off topic here but... WTH, (and I only mention this becuase these types usually share another trait), the best fencers in the clubs I've fenced at were the ones who don't offer advice. IMHO, this is rudeness beyond contempt. Asking and answering makes good fencers better and better fencers great. Egoes are for NBA stars.

MJ

[attila]

Bayer H

I think you need to adress why you think you need to control how other people do things. I think it is warped. Why don't you concentrate on doing YOUR thing and not worry about the hacks. Besides it is their money they are spending in fencing, not yours. Plus if you dislike them so much, just don't fence them. Seems pretty uncomplicated to me.

[Craig]

While I agree that it sucks to have a fencer worried only about winning their practice bouts, that will only hurt them in the long run.

It should not impact how you approach things if you don't allow yourself to get caught up in that game.

If you know that you are working on A, B and C during your bouts, then you will improve. You should talk to those other fencers about it and see what they say. If they see your wisdom, then good; if not, then let them fence their way and you fence yours and use your results at the end of the year to do the talking the next time.

Cheers,
Craig

[d8m2k]

Bayer Hunter

A couple of things:

1) Not everyone looks at fencing the same way. You may look at practice to to do just that, practice. Others look at it as a time to go and have fun, not neccessarily improving their game, just having fun.

2) Some fencers and coaches feel that it is neccessary, even in "practice", to try to win every time. Kolobkov (RUS) is like that in practice. Cerioni (ITA) was also like that, but then again he was insane so maybe he's not the best example. Either way, a fencer needs to practice winning just as much as techinque and tactics.

3)Lastly, Attila you Da Man. You can't control how other people view fencing. At the same time you don't have to fence them if you don't want to. I disagree with the thought the best need to fence the worst. Often it is just a waste of time, and the "worst" fencer just learns that they can get hit 5 times really fast.

That said, personally, I avoid fencing people like BH describes. I don't think poorly of them, or try to change them, I just don't fence them. I find that I learn nothing from them, and they learn nothing from me. It is pretty simple.

[neevel]

Are they actually doing anything to hurt or impede you? If not, let them masturbate away (figuratively speaking, of course, at least so far as when they're in the club ). They're dues paying members and are thus helping support the club financially. I wouldn't worry so much about having to 'protect' the folks around you from their attitude-- the ones who are serious about it will to figure it out on their own. You'll usually see this develop on its own during bouting-- you'll have the 'A' strips where the folks who are really serious about improving, and the 'B' for the more recreational folks. One thing I might do is be diligent about having a supervised 'C' for the beginners-- maybe rotate someone over to there from an 'A' strip when they need a breather, so the newbies can get experience with what good fencing is, and to steer Mr. Close-Twist-Remise to the rotation on one of the other strips.

-Dave

[big poppa]

It has been my experience that these kinds of fencers are only good in the gym.This is the time to pratice as a former coach of mine told me"winning here don't matter, this is pratice".B H ,do your thing and let them beat off.When it's important your pratice will payoff and their pratice will leave them crushed, stomped ,embarrased and wondering why they took up fencing in the first place.

[Peach]

And there's nothing more satisfying than beating one of them when they go to a tournament. I have a clubmate who "beats" me at the club all the time, but in tournaments most of the time it's one-lighters for me. Makes him craaaaaazy.

[ledgerto]

I read somewhere that "There are no friends in the piste." (Not necessarily my opinion)

Comments?

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Old dogs CAN learn new tricks!

[This message has been edited by ledgerto (edited 05-14-2001).]

[swordsen]

There is actually very little I enjoy more than meeting a friend in competition. even in the DE's. We both know we are going to go all out to win yet we can joke about it later. Heck,sometimes we can joke about it while it is going on.

[arcon]

[ 10-23-2001: Message edited by: arcon ]

[Purple Fencer]

Originally posted by ledgerto:
I read somewhere that "There are no friends in the piste." (Not necessarily my opinion)

Comments?

I think that's one of my phrases.

And it's true! When I'm at an official comp, I don't care if I'm fencign my wife. I wanna win! That's why I'm there (and for the fun of competing).

If I'm not gonna try and win, regarless of whoi I'm fencing...a) why even go? b) don't I dishonor myself and my opponent by not trying my hardest to win? That's why I refuse to give freebie touches to a little kid I'm pasting. In pool it'll hurt my seedings, and in DE they know the differance. I'm personally insulted by a gimmie touch. I'd rather earn it.

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Sam Signorelli -- Boldly going forward...'cause I can't find reverse!

[Stryder]

Why let the actions of other fencers affect your practice. If you get hit, it is because YOU made a mistake. It is not because they didn't "fence right."
There have been several fencers called scrappy or without skill by their contemporaries. Stephano Cerioni was one. He fenced hard didn't worry so much about aesthetics, and it got him 2 Olympic medals.
Alan Weber was the scrappiest nastiest fencer I have ever seen, "anything for a touch" was one line I heard describing him, but he has a few National medals. Including a 15-6 spanking of "Mr Form", Michael Marx in '94 Div1 foil.

When you can beat him 15-0 in practice he will get the point and change, if not, anyone who can hit you in practice is your friend. Use him for all he is worth.

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www.geocities.com/strydermike