Guys who go for crappy hits in practice.

[veeco]

I have been watching this thread from the beginning and I have to agree with what d8m2k has to say.

At my club, I usually always fence the same people over and over because I don't want to fence the recreational fencers. I do fence them from time to time, but usually when I do, I fear 2 things:

1- They will hurt me (it turns out that most of the so called recreational fencers are not so recreational when they are on the strip). Fencing is about competing and trying to win.

2- They will repeatedly try the same action over and over again once I am trying something new out, not helping me improve.

Fencing is a individualistic sport and these people take great pride in scoring whatever amount of touches they can score against me. Therefore they are not helping me improve because usually I setup every practise time with a specific goal in mind and stuff that I want to try, when they only want to beat me, beat me, beat me, and don't care about improving themselves. So they will try anything to score against actions that I am setting up to improve.

Believe me, telling them doesn't help.

[Peach]

I don't have much alternative to bouting with people who are not at my level, or to bouting with people who are more interested in trying to beat me than in fencing correctly. If I didn't, I wouldn't get much fencing. I am trying to keep up my competitive training program in a club which is not primarily a sabre club. It's not that the club is against sabre. It's just that the coaches are primarily foil and epee. It is also the best club in the area.

So I currently have as bouting partners such people as (1) a 12-year-old boy who doesn't like to bout adults, when he does bout wants to win rather than work on actions, and doesn't acknowledge touches against him (2) a guy who started before I did but didn't start taking lessons until he had developed a huge litany of bad habits he's trying to lose, and who also doesn't like bouting me (3) a college fencer who is nothing BUT bad habits even though he is very smart and experienced, but who at least will fence for hours, (4) a novice adult woman who is working on lunging properly, and (5) thank god one experienced sabre fencer who just got home from college and who gave me a real sabre bout Wednesday night but who comes at the wrong time and has to coach to pay for his club fees so I get maybe one brief bout with him.

I get very creative about working on my actions. Wednesday night, for instance, I bouted the woman who is learning to work on lunging. I set myself the task of working on my counter-attacks, stop-hits, and parries by standing completely still and letting her attack me. She could score if she lunged properly, but she only did so about 3 times <sigh>. Well, it was drill which will pay off in the veteran's tournament this summer.

With the people who have bad habits and score on me with bad actions, I decide ahead of time that I would rather fence correctly than win. I lose a lot of bouts at the club. I go to local tournaments for more bouting practice.

I take lessons, and the coaches are excellent, but if I want high-level bouting I have to travel to tournaments. Sometimes this stinks because even at those tournaments I don't encounter people who are really strong. For instance, the first really challenging bout I had in months last year was my second DE in the IA.

It stinks, but I'm managing to stay on the national points list doing it, and I'd rather do it than give up. It's veeerry creative.

[attila]

C'mon guys. It is so simple. When you meet these guys who just wank ,beat the **** outta them! Work on your beats /binds/ takes and pound them. Have you no skills that can deal with the scrubs. Because if you can't you are part of the problem.......

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"Kill the men, save the women, and by the gods, do not spill the wine"

[aussie]

Hi All,

i did know i would open a pandoras box of discussion?

the thoughts i have are varied because of the range of experiences. Children ( i.e. 7-14 are the best to coach the absorb information quicker than other age groups, but at the same time they can be quickly turned off fencing if they are hit too hard by another/ older fencer, as seen to often.
Older fencers with more skill and training should be fencing fencing the younger and less experienced, one to keep you humble, and two it cements your skills and way of fencing into your brain. Often used for reflection and correction in a later time or bout.

to fence inexperienced fencers and/or recreational fencers is a part of the infrastructure of a club and keeps the sport alive for all people. Yes it does show up your weaknesses, which are usually impatience and the ability to hide your skills at a slower or hidden rate.

to only go for the hits at all cost in training are usually in your regular training group at your level, and just before the tapering before competition.

on the issue of stance, balance, footwork and technique, my coach refers to 'Doriolla?'not sure of the spelling, sorry, but the point is he was like a cat flexible, fast, honest and suttle.

the reason the lung is so hard to master and correct is the thought that if you bend forward you get more distance, this is wrong, you lean back with your head back pivoting from the hip with your sword hand finishing at eye level. Your knee should be in line with the toe of your foot at the end of your lunge, and your head not falling away exposing your back and restricting arm and foot movement.

[Stryder]

d8m2k-
I guess we have different points of view. I fence at asmall club and always have. It's been a long time since I lost a bout in practice when I wasn't working on something so if I ignored people because they weren't A's then I would have a lot of spare time on my hands.

One thing I have learned is that every fencer I meet has something that I can use. Some way to challange me. I usually find what they are best at and beat them at that. If someone is so bad that I can't fence them at all, I stop the bout and teach them something, and they work on it for the next 15-20 actions. Depending on their point control.

With regard to the competition format thing, sorry for reopening an old can. I like the new format. I still think the canadian format is better though. Our so called elite fencers could use the high level competion in a pool format more than in a direct format, since most of our elite fencers are getting slapped around as a result of the pools.

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www.geocities.com/strydermike

[d8m2k]

Originally posted by Stryder:
d8m2k-
...One thing I have learned is that every fencer I meet has something that I can use. Some way to challange me. I usually find what they are best at and beat them at that. If someone is so bad that I can't fence them at all, I stop the bout and teach them something, and they work on it for the next 15-20 actions. Depending on their point control...

Stryder,

Our views are different, partly because of circumstance. As I said, at my current club I have the option to fence a variety of people. However, I have been at smaller clubs. My response when I felt like fencing the people would not help me improve, I did not fence. I did a lot of drills, handwork, footwork, and physical training. It worked for me.

Also take note that I am not talking about fencing only "A" fencers. But people who have a genuine interest in improving. Those who can learn something from me, and I can learn from them, I fence. But the person who shows up once a month, tries to hit go for that "crappy hit", I don't bother to fence. Nothing personal, just business.

And we can continue the tournament discussion later...


Attila,

The problem isn't about winning or losing, at least for me. It's about improvment and time managment.

[This message has been edited by d8m2k (edited 05-21-2001).]

[MikeHarm]

I agree with Atilla on this one.

Mike

[Chris]

Originally posted by Mr_Jones:
I'm in tentative agreement here. I do believe that excellent fencers should fence 'hacks' occasionally. In fact, I believe the best should fence the worst, and the worst should fence the worst, and the best should fence the best, in constant, and varying rotation.

Being hit by a hack means you've left something open, and finding something that doesn't work against a particular fencer means you are not doing it correctly. Varying techniques to your particular opponent is what, I believe, fencing as an athlete is about. Being able to defeat soundly all opponents is the goal.

Of course, I also believe that you should do your best to be helpful to your opponent after a practice bout, no matter what their skill level. Simply saying, "You've gotten better since last week, but you're still dragging your back foot, like you're off balance before you attack, but not before you feint', is common courtesy.

Unfortunately, and I do hate to be off topic here but... WTH, (and I only mention this becuase these types usually share another trait), the best fencers in the clubs I've fenced at were the ones who don't offer advice. IMHO, this is rudeness beyond contempt. Asking and answering makes good fencers better and better fencers great. Egoes are for NBA stars.

MJ

MJ,

You are a complete stranger to me, so I don't know why, exactly, you say this; Certainly, offering unwelcome advice CAN be tiresome (and I know I have been guilty of this from time, to time...), and there are definitely BAD times to do it!

However, to say that 'the best fencers' don't do it might be inferred that keeping your mouth shut is a way to get 'good', and though I suppose, in the short run, it could help someone succeed in a limited sense by not helping to improve their local competition, in the long run, that's a minor issue.

Personally, I am a lousy athlete, but a pretty good fencer (nothing great; just pretty good), but even after 20-odd years, I still like to compete: As luck would have it, the last few years I haven't always had access to training partners/local competition that are much better.

So when I spar with a beginner, or even someone who has been fencing 'a couple years' (which at 1 night a week or so, might not really add up to that much), and then 'give them advice', it's not really about my ego...

First of all, I AM often sparring, NOT fencing to win, I start out with slower, simpler actions, and then gradually make them faster and more complicated to try to get my partner to 'stretch', then I work on some of my own moves, and (sometimes) finish up with a little more 'open game', although I am often STILL practicing, but rather I am practicing the things going on in my head:
I know I am better than them; and THEY know I am better than them (not that that's saying much); and I know they won't enjoy it if I stand around 'smacking them in the face with it': What I want to achieve by offering my advice (hopefully in a tactful fashion) is to get them to understand things that will help them develop more quickly; THAT will make it more fun for them, and help them stay involved and come around more often: the more they do THAT, the faster they will be good enough to help me get better (or at least stay where I am at).

(It might be rude, occaisionally; but I take issue with the 'beyond contempt' part.)

Sometimes, I think the 'best fencers in the clubs' don't want people to be able to beat them...

Personally, I usually make it a point to fence anyone that's around (except the few people that don't seem to understand how to control how hard/where they hit you).

But, I also get a little tired of people who haven't don't that long, don't come around very much, and don't work very hard at it, but want the club to be there, and the people to be there to play with, whenever they feel like coming around; especially the ones who get all upset about not doing well.

(anybody got a light! ;-)

Sinc.

CLH

[Mr_Jones]

CLH,

I'm sorry. Whatever gave you the idea I was responding to you specifically? If I had been, I'd have PM'd you, instead of airing an issue in public. My comments were made in a group forum, designed to be read by the group and in response to various pieces of the group's chatter.

BTW, in reading your post, I feel if we ever did meet, we would probably get along wonderfully. We share the same view.

MJ