Bad referees

[pkt]

Regret d'Vie,

In short, all you could have written was, "Do as I say, not as I do."

"...this passage is a general principal governing decision-making..."
You do mean "principle", don't you?
[Smart aleck!]

PK

[pkt]

Originally posted by Artisan
It does indeed seem to me to be a case of debating the point for the sake of debate.

...

Isn't that the whole raison d'etre of forums?

PK

[pkt]

Rolls,

Pls read EDew's and my post immediately after his for possible scenarios on how a ref can "unintentionally" screw up calls, yes, even in epee bouts.

PK

[Rolls]

Originally posted by pkt
Rolls,

Pls read EDew's and my post immediately after his for possible scenarios on how a ref can "unintentionally" screw up calls, yes, even in epee bouts.

PK

I agree that a referee can screw up a bout in epee, but I think it's easier when RoW is involved. Also, it can happend more subconciously with RoW. In epee, I think it would have to be a much more deliberate thing. Which in the spirit of sportsmanship, I can't see a ref doing.

Rolls.

[pkt]

Rolls,

...anything can and does happen.

PK

[The0ne]

directing Epee is just standing there, watching the floor and the lights, when a light goes off, and didn't hit the floor hand out a touch. Repeat, and try not to fall asleep during the bout. This is an accurate foilists view. =)

[Regret d'Vie]

Originally posted by pkt
In short, all you could have written was, "Do as I say, not as I do."

Well, you lost me with your translation. But I'll be the first to admit I tend to use far more words than necessary.

Originally posted by pkt
You do mean "principle", don't you?

Thanks. You got me there. I see I didn't make you mad enough to quit reading my post, however.

I second you and Eric on the possibility of referees making bad calls in retaliation. Yes, it's much more difficult in epee, but after some of the stuff I've seen, I'd put <i>nothing</i> past an angry director of questionable integrity:

I had one student who was fencing simultaneously in beginner's foil and standard foil pools at a fairly large meet. The director of the standard pool quickly saw this and told my student that he couldn't fence in both events. My student politely and calmly responded that he couldn't help that the organizers were running both events simultaneously, and that he had been allowed to <i>register</i> for both.

Granted, it was a minor inconvenience to other fencers, and I suppose my student could theoretically have been carded several times for failure to appear. I've really never looked this one up in the Athlete's Handbook. Anyway, the bout committee was called in, and -- right or wrong -- ruled in favor of my student.

Well, the director stomped, spit, and cursed for a minute or two, then refused to call priority for my student under <i>any</i> circumstance. He threw out completely valid one-lights by calling "halt" just before or at a hit and saying "fence cleanly, please" or "I lost the action. Nothing done." All bouts in this pool (that I saw) that didn't include my student were directed competently. My student "lost" by 5-0, 5-1, or 5-2 every bout in the pool, including those in which he irrefutably toasted his opponent. I was dumbfounded. In light of the conflict and of the director's obviously hateful attitude, I expected my student to get nailed on the close calls, but I was aghast at the fictional accounts of the action that continually proceeded from his mouth. Granted, this was the worst case I've ever seen, but I can cite numerous less-severe, similar instances.

If the tourney had a dedicated bout committee rather than one made up of fencers fighting in other events, I would have had a member observe this farce. As it was, my student and I both chalked it up as a miserable learning experience.

Apparently, the officials in Rolls' part of the country are uniformly resistant to this sort of corruption.

[Inquartata]

Wow.

You know, in a case like that I don't know that it wouldn't be ok to violate the general rule on courtesy and tell the so-called referee that if he didn't desist you were going to remove him from the bout yourself---via a broken nose. ( I mean, no bout committee for HIM to worry about, none for YOU to worry about. )

Well, on second thought, no. But how such a jackass lives with himself after rationalizing flagrant cheating over a wounded ego is beyond me...

[Rolls]

Originally posted by Regret d'Vie

Apparently, the officials in Rolls' part of the country are uniformly resistant to this sort of corruption.

That's a nightmare story if I've ever heard of them.

I don't know what to say other than that even the worse refs I've seen haven't been blatantly dishonest. I've seen young fencers reffing sabre pools that they are fencing in and make obvious mistakes, but they do it somewhat consistantly (at least they are trying to be consistant).

If I ever incountered something like this, I would complain to the organizers of the tournament. If they didn't care, then I wouldn't go back.

Actually, that reminds me of something I would suggest. I always try to make it a point (at local tournaments) to talk with the organizers of the tournament. For several reasons, you will hear about their next tournament, you'll let them know you're appreciative of their efforts to host that one, and in the case of something going wrong, they'll know you and be more open to your complaints.

Granted that refs can vary greatly in what they think is the correct application of the rules, I would venture to say that 99% of them are honest and are just trying to do what they think is right.

Rolls.

[Regret d'Vie]

Originally posted by Rolls
If I ever encountered something like this, I would complain to the organizers of the tournament. If they didn't care, then I wouldn't go back.

I did, and I won't. Their response was something like "Yeah, he can be a real a******, but he always brings a lot of rated fencers."

Originally posted by Rolls
I would venture to say that 99% of them are honest and are just trying to do what they think is right.

You may be right, though 99% seems a bit optimistic. It's possible that a few bad experiences have made me jaded.

A small part of the problem may also be that we don't have dedicated directors at the vast majority of tournaments in my part of the country, even some of the larger ones. So directors tend to call things the way they always do, and their clubmates in the pool rightfully know how they call things and fence accordingly, whereas no one else really does. So what, at first glance, <i>appears</i> to be collusion or outright dishonesty in many cases is perfectly innocent and otherwise correct. You always have to "fence the director," of course, but this situation unfortunately puts everyone on an uneven playing field from the beginning.

It's for this reason that I always explain my major tendencies to my fencers when directing a pool. Yes, I know some people say a director doesn't "owe" anyone an explanation like that, and they're right, but it seems the nice thing to do, just takes a few moments, and makes me feel better about calling things as I always do when working with unfamiliar fencers. I make enough bad calls without being accused of purposely favoring anyone.

Man, this is addictive. Every time I click "quote" or "reply" intending to type a few brief comments, I end up writing a book.

[pkt]

Originally posted by The0ne
directing Epee is just standing there, watching the floor and the lights, when a light goes off, and didn't hit the floor hand out a touch. Repeat, and try not to fall asleep during the bout. This is an accurate foilists view. =)

That's a very common misconception. For someone like you, TheOne, who has made some very accurate observations since you started posting, I'll let you have this one. No one is perfect, not even me.

Among the 3 weapns, epee is most difficult to ref simply because of this one fact [it comes from my personal observation from mid-level competitions, in higher levels, epeeist fence almost like foilists and sabruers, i.e. normal fencers ]:
Most of the time, nothing happens; then in the blink of an eye all hell breaks loose. If the ref is not on his/her toes, he'll be condemned to referee hell, never to be seen again as a ref. And as well he/she shouldn't.

Q: Did that hit actually land on the opponent or off the psite?
Q: Did that hit actually land on the opponent or on the table or the score box?
Q: In that close-quarter contretemp, did that fencer hit the opponent or did he hit himself, accidentally or otherwise?

Two of the tricks I've learned from an Olymipic-level epeeist are these:
~ He'll fence at the edge of the piste, point an inch from the piste. He'll step fwd, tap the tape holding down the metallic piste with his point then on the opponent.
If, as the ref, you're not paying attention, you'll miss that.

~ In the instances where there is no clock displaying the time, the team mate would sit beside the piste with a stopwatch, and with hand signals tell how much time left...

So stay awake and pay attention.

PK

[pkt]

Originally posted by Regret d'Vie
...

I had one student who was fencing simultaneously in beginner's foil and standard foil pools at a fairly large meet. ...

This is the fault of the organisers and your student suffered for it.

The ref could legally black card your student for failing to be present on the piste...

Most tournaments have this caveat in the entry form:
"If you choose to enter multiple events on the same day, if progress of the tournament is deemed to be hindered, you may be asked to resign from one of the events. Entry fees will not be refunded in this case." ...or something like that.

PK

[pkt]

[i]...
Man, this is addictive. Every time I click "quote" or "reply" intending to type a few brief comments, I end up writing a book. [/b]

Isn't it though?
That's why I'm trying very hard to do as much 1- or 2-line riposts...

PK

[Regret d'Vie]

Originally posted by pkt
This is the fault of the organisers and your student suffered for it.

The ref could legally black card your student for failing to be present on the piste...

So I suspected. On both counts.

Originally posted by pkt
Most tournaments have this caveat in the entry form:
"If you choose to enter multiple events on the same day, if progress of the tournament is deemed to be hindered, you may be asked to resign from one of the events. Entry fees will not be refunded in this case." ...or something like that.

Ah, yes. Now that you mention it, I have seen that from time-to-time. Thanks, pkt.

Good post on directing epee. I'm curious, did the Olympic-level epeeist mention how widespread these tricks were on high levels (esp. the point on tape)? I promise, I won't ask his name.

[pkt]

Put it this way, though he's a Modern Pentathelete, remember Boris Onishenko at the Montreal Games of 1976?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/olympics/...pentathlon.htm
"One of the best modern pentathletes in the world, Onishenko was desperate to win gold in Montreal having won silver in 1972 and been crowned world champion in the lead-up to the 1976 Games.

"Instead of glory, Onishenko reaped only shame in Montreal when he was disqualified after he tampered with his epee (sword), causing it to register hits even when none had been scored."

That's in epee, not foil, not sabre.

I'm sure there are other instances but if ABC - that's Australia Broadcasting Corp. - carried it...

PK

[Regret d'Vie]

Originally posted by pkt
Put it this way, though he's a Modern Pentathelete, remember Boris Onishenko at the Montreal Games of 1976?

Yes, I believe that incident is covered in some detail in "By the Sword" by Richard Cohen.

[The0ne]

Hah, I've heard a better cheating-at-epee story! It involves a man, a desire to win, and his nostils. . . Shall I go farther?? Yeah Epee is freaking hard to direct, when I get forced to I just pray "don't hit the floor, don't hit the floor, equptment PLEASE work!!" It's worked so far. . .

[pkt]

What's a "nostil"?
Is it some kind of a Pastil?

PK

[Artisan]

Originally posted by The0ne
Hah, I've heard a better cheating-at-epee story! It involves a man, a desire to win, and his nostils. . . Shall I go farther?? Yeah Epee is freaking hard to direct, when I get forced to I just pray "don't hit the floor, don't hit the floor, equptment PLEASE work!!" It's worked so far. . .

Are you referring top the ol' booger on the tip so it insulates on a hit to the guard trick?

I had a top level ref explain to me that epee is the hardest because of the the infrequency of calls and the difficulty of the calls when they do occur. In foil, he might make 30 -50 calls in a routine DE. Thats thousands of calls per year. Lots of practice, lots of routine situations. Makes for a high percentage of correct calls. In Epee he might make no significant calls for many months then suddenly have to may several calls in a row - and calls that involve potentially complex interpretations of the rules.

Scenario: (in any particular order)suddenly one fencer closes, the other steps in - infighing occurs, one or both put a foot off the strip, there is a corps a corps, and two lights, and you have said halt at some point... all during the last 1/2 second. Now make a call.

[pkt]

Precisely what I mean.

Epee as fenced by the majority of the mid- to low-level fencers are so mundane and boring that the ref might be lulled to snoring sleep when all that happens...

Now, with the newer machines, you don't even have to do the timing at the one-man-run pistes...one less thing to keep one awake...

PK