Beat attacks

[jackal123]

hi guys, I've fence for 3 years now, and i realised that I did not have much coaching in beat attacks. Could anyone offer me some tips about it?Like which part of my blade should I take the opponents?is a beat attack the most basic of all forms of attack? Also I really don't understand how to perform a beat attack on a left hander(I'm a right hander)...thanks for your help

[jBirch]

Heya Jackal123!

Beats are attacks on the blade designed to beat the blade out of the way and create an opening for you to exploit. Sometimes this opening is because the blade actually moves, sometimes it's because of the response and sometimes it's because your opponent has to think. In foil and sabre, they take priority from PIL (since the idea is that the point is no longer in line, even if only for a moment). In sabre, a beat is any engagement that hits the foible or middle while a parry is any engagement that hits the forte. Because it takes priority, you sometimes see a beat on the forte in foil, but it's usually a bad idea.

You execute a proper, simple beat by bringing your foible (the top 1/3 of your blade) against their foible sharply and attacking immediately after. The feeling is of banging their blade out of your way (but with as little movement of your blade as possible). Different types of beats are designed to elicit different things and consequently, there are three general types of beats (as opposed to other engagements or attacks on the blade):

1) Light, fast. Designed to annoy and disrupt your opponent and generally repeated a couple of times. Sometimes executed on the middle.

2) Moderate, obvious. Designed to draw a press, attack or parry which you will then deceive. Sometimes executed on the middle.

3) Sharp, fast. Designed to beat their blade out of the way for your attack (which follows immediately after). Always executed on the foible.

Hope this helps!

[Craig]

There are a couple of articles available in the General section of the "Training Tips and Drills" link to the left.

The ones covering beats:
Preparations of Attacks - Beats
and
Beat Attacks and Timing

Hope those help out.

Craig

[I_luv_saber]

In saber, I use beats as little as possible. Only for blocking PIL or other few occasions. I do this because I find even a well-executed beat (on your part) can be easily mistaken for your opponents parry. Except of course in certain situations.
Example: Fencer A and Fencer B both move forward and extend their blades at the same time (simultaneous attack). Fencer A beats fencer B's blade an delivers a head cut. More than once I've seen this called Fencer B's parry riposte.

[AndrewH]

Originally posted by I_luv_saber
In saber, I use beats as little as possible.

If you ask me, beats are an essential tool for sabre defense. If you're being chased down the strip, you have to make the opponent stop- there's only 3 ways to do that. Stop cut, PIL, or take the blade. I prefer taking the blade because it's less risky than attempting stopcuts, and PIL is more of a last-resort defense. Just concentrate (and drill) on hitting the blade on the top third, and practice doing it in such a way that the director will call it as your beat.

[The0ne]

beats for me are either a way to deflect PIL, just take right of way, or to draw a reaction from an opponent. Drawing an action is for me the most important part of using beats while fencing, many fencers (me included) have a habit of reacting a certain way to a beat, if you can figure this out, you have an advantage since you know your opponent's next action.

[pkt]

jackal

You've been fencing for 3 years and have yet to learn beats?
What have you been learning?

I know, I know: footwork only for the 1st 6 months, right? That still leaves 2 1/2 years that you should have been taught beats.

Time for a more progressive coach.

PK

[shmagoogin77]

in foil beats are useful

[neevel]

The last paragraph of Craig's Beat Attacks and Timing article brings up something that I like to set out when I teach beat attacks: the various types of beat attacks can be used to form a small, self-contained tactical wheel (an epicycle of sorts off of the first-intention-offensive spoke of the larger tactical wheel).

The point of departure for this tactical epicycle is the simple beat-direct attack: you advance, deliver the beat with the landing of the rear foot, and then finish direct with a strongly accelerating tempo change. Even if you don't land the touch, this is going to prime your opponent to make an immediate parry in response to the beat.

That immediate parry then sets up the second step in the progression, the simple beat-indirect attack. You still deliver the beat with the back foot, and still make a strong tempo change on the finish, but the cadence of the action now includes a very brief pause to allow you to make the disengage around the parry.

Now that you've demonstrated both the simple beat-direct and beat-indirect attacks, your opponent has to be concerned with finishes to either side of the blade. This lays the ground for the third point on the epicycle, the beat-feint attack. Now you make the beat early in the advance, and then place the feint with the back foot. You want to make the feint with an accelerating tempo relative to the beat, but leaving yourself enough reserve to deliver a still stronger burst of speed when you finish. If your opponent attempts to parry the feint, you decieve and finish. If your opponent heistates when you place the feint, you finish direct-- with the right distance and a good tempo change you will be able to hit if they parry after you start your finishing motion. If your opponent retreats in response to the feint, you advance a place another feint (commonly to another line, the better to draw a search for your blade). The cadence here is something along the lines of quarter-note (beat)/eighth-note (feint)/sixteenth-note (finish).

Once your opponent is primed to the three-part cadence of the beat-feint attack, you can cycle back to the two-part cadence of the simple beat-direct attack: quarter-note (beat)/sixteenth-note (finish). From there your can either start moving around this three-spoke epicycle again, or else shift to something else (if your opponent is now expecting some kind of beat attack from you, an attack without blade preparation can work well).


A couple of thoughts on the hand mechanics of beats:

- Beats are delivered by squeezing down with the back three fingers of the hand, which are normally only loosely holding the grip. This allows you to deliver sharp beats without much hand motion, and enables you to modulate the strength of your beats easily (light squeeze = light beat, sharp squeeze = sharp beat). Of course, you relax the fingers after making the beat so you can place your blade accurately.

- Instead of allowing your blade to bounce away from your opponent's blade upon delivering the beat, as it is naturally wont to do (equal and opposite reactions), practice making beats so that you maintain your blade stationary at the point of contact while your opponent's is deflected. This way, you'll be able to direct your point to precisely where you want it after the beat, rather than having to overcome that reactive bounce.


-Dave

[Craig]

Dave - Great post! Those thoughts expanding out on the tactical wheel are excellent and add to the thoughts I was going with in that article.

Keep em coming.

Craig

[jackal123]

so tempo and beat attacks go hand in hand? whats tempo anyway?
The coach says I'm one of the fastest he had ever seen, but he also says that my timing is way crap, so i'm not fencing my best for the past 3 years. What is timing?

You see, I used to travel around the world with my family and never stayed at a place for more than 6 mths, so each time i join a new club, the coach starts over from scratch again, thats why my knowledge of beat atacks are almost non-existent.

[neevel]

Originally posted by jackal123
so tempo and beat attacks go hand in hand? whats tempo anyway?
The coach says I'm one of the fastest he had ever seen, but he also says that my timing is way crap, so i'm not fencing my best for the past 3 years. What is timing?

Tempo and everything go hand in hand. Understanding and control of tempo is one of the most profound, underlying keys to fencing. Watch one of the greats make a seemingly effortless, out-of-the-blue simple direct attack on another strong fencer. Watch them "freeze" an opponent just as they deliver the paying stroke of a compound attack. That's what use of tempo can create.

The basic definition of tempo is the time it takes to execute a single action-- simple enough. Now imagine fencing an opponent who makes his every action at the same tempo, as though he were moving to the ticks of a metronome: advance (tick)-advance (tick)-beat (tick)-feint (tick)-lunge (tick). It's not going to take you long to figure out the timing of his actions-- when you see that feint, you'll know exactly when the lunge is going to come. You can then time your own retreat and parry accordingly. Even if he's moving very quickly, that fact that every action is coming at the same tempo relative to the preceeding action makes him predictable.

What you want to do is change the tempo of your actions. For example, when you make any kind of hit, you almost always want to have the tempo of the actual hit be faster than the last preceeding motion. Now, your opponent will not be able to judge the timing of your finish based on the timing of your set-up. The the change of tempo is far more significant than the absolute speed. You can finish an action at something well below your maximum speed, but if it is much faster than the immediately preceeding action it'll be effective. Creating this element of unpredictability is the first, simplest benefit of controlling and changing tempo.

The deeper element in controlling tempo is the way it enables you to set up an opponent. The simple slow-fast tempo change described above is itself a set-up: you're priming your opponent to react according to slower tempo, which won't be sufficient against the faster tempo you end with. Tempo changes between the motions of a compound attack will help you draw out the desired responses. Put in a little acceleration of tempo as you make feint and the feint will look more threatening, and more likely to bring out a parry. If your response to the parry is a one-two disengage, making the tempo of the one just a shade slower than the feint will entice your opponent to react in that slower tempo, which will leave them unready when you make you strong final acceleration on the two and finish.

The next level of tempo set-ups is employing cadences. A cadence is a sequence of tempo changes, which you typically layer on top of some other sequence of distance changes (footwork) and blade action. When you set a cadence, what you are doing is creating a pattern that you intend your opponent to fall into a sort of rhythm with-- especially if it's disguised by or interwoven with other patterns of action. You then catch your opponent by breaking the cadence-- either altering one of the tempo changes, or leaving it out altogether (like the example of shifting from a beat-feint attack back to a simple beat-direct attack). As you can see, the interplay of tempo with distance and bladework is something that can be used to create phrases of tremendous richness and subtlety.

-Dave

[jeff]

An outstanding post, Dave!

[jackal123]

When I execute a beat attack, I always get a hit on my arm, and I realised that its just the opponent straightening his arm and aim it on mine. In practise, ideally, I beat the coach's blade and it points away, allowing me a direct hit on the coach's arm, but when it comes to a real bout, i do exacly the same in practice, but its not effective at all...gets really frustrating. Why is this so? Why in practice, I can do it so beautifully, yet when it comes to an opponent, irregardless weak or strong, I still lunge into their blade. is my beat too soft?

Also, when i do a beat attack, where should I aim for?the wrist, arm or body?is it better if i do a beat, then flick on the arm?

[pkt]

jackal,
You've yet to specify which weapon you fence.
From your last post it sounds like epee, why else would you be aiming for your coache's arm in a lesson.

That said, when you execute your beat in a bout, make sure you beat on the foilble of the opp's blade.

In sabre, and in sabre ONLY, by definition, a beat has to be on the top half of the opp's blade. Because in theory, if you beat on the bottom half of the opp's blade, that's a parry and it's more difficult - though not impossible - to move and opp's blade with a beat to the bottom half of the blade.

Read the thread I've started called "Beat attack in Foil"
http://www.fencing101.com/vb/showthr...&threadid=9568

PK

[jBirch]

jackal123,

Your timing is off. You need to beat then smoothly transition to an attack. If you beat, pause, then attack, you'll often get nailed on the arm since it's hanging out there without any protection. Also, beat firmly, but not excessively: don't swat at the blade.

Whether you get hit on the inside, outside, underside or topside of your arm would point to a more specific problem.

Hope this helps.

[jackal123]

yup, im on epee only. I get hit on the topside of the arm, at the biceps.so is it right to say that both the beat and the lunge are one single action?or is it advance, beat, then lunge?how can i train myself for this smooth instantaneous speed?any advice?

[oiuyt]

If you're getting hit on the biceps you're going WAY too deep with your attack. A beat-direct should involve you bouncing off of their blade directly to hitting their wrist (as in not even beat, aim, hit the arm). You really shouldn't be ABLE to hit their biceps and unless they have a truly massive reach advantage they, therefore, shouldn't be able to hit yours. Sounds like in addition to the timing errors you're just starting way too close.

-B :)

[jBirch]

Jackal123,

If you're getting hit at the bicep then by definition your arm is bent right? Beat, extend, lunge, recover. Extending your arm immediately after the beat hides the bicep behind the bell. Also don't forget that you extend straight out from the shoulder, then angulate to your target in a simple beat-direct attack to the arm.

Hope this helps.

[I_luv_saber]

Originally posted by AndrewH
If you ask me, beats are an essential tool for sabre defense. If you're being chased down the strip, you have to make the opponent stop- there's only 3 ways to do that. Stop cut, PIL, or take the blade. I prefer taking the blade because it's less risky than attempting stopcuts, and PIL is more of a last-resort defense. Just concentrate (and drill) on hitting the blade on the top third, and practice doing it in such a way that the director will call it as your beat.

Convincing the director of this doesn't always happen though... even when you hit the top 1/3 of the blade. I find a parry riposte is more clear, and easier to execute. Now I'm not saying there is NO place for beats... like in a PIL situation, or maybe to mix things up, but I think a simple parry riposte is more convincing.