Ferro's Lunge and Sabre

[jBirch]

Hey All,

I was reading over the holidays some historical crap just for giggles and I twigged in on the comment about the lunge being geometrically superior to the cut. So, it got me thinking: why don't we see more point work in sabre?

When I experiment on my students at the club (who start with epee and restricted target) they seem to be pretty evil with fine point work around the arm. This seems to me to be vastly more trainable then broad cuts to the head and cheek with theoretical advantage. So again, why isn't there more point work in sabre?

Take it easy.

[Tireur]

Point in line and derobement are major parts of my sabre game.

[whtouche]

I honestly can't answer your main question but can address parts of your post.
I would say it's probably likely that people at your club are "pretty evil" with point attacks to the arm with sabres because they're only using them against other epeeists with sabres in their hands. You're also absolutely correct that a precision point attack is superior to a 'broad' sabre cut. But the thing is, a good cut is not broad.

Shrug. I don't really have much else to offer on the subject.

[deadly lefty]

a cut is really just a point in line a little off target and then you hit your target. I guess in a real sabre duel the cut would be more effective. and plus we need it to seperate foil and sabre

[Inquartata]

Because fencing isn't necessarily about "geometric superiority". A point attack may be more direct, but it is also more limited and more predictable. In sabre, with the cut, you have to be able to deal with an attack coming from the right, the left, downward, upward and all points of the compass in between, as well as straight ahead. Limit yourself to just point attacks and you limit your opponent's uncertainty as well: he knows where you'll be coming---where you will HAVE to be coming, because changing from point attack to cut can lose you the ROW.

That said, point isn't as rare as you might think in sabre, and its an important part of the sabre bag of tricks, especially on defense.

[Peach]

I use point a good deal.

[The0ne]

I think speed is also an issue, it's technically easier to work with the point but in a bout broader actions are easier to do faster, and as Inquartata said as less predicatable.

[westcoastsabre]

I use a fair amount of pointwork as well, however the point is easier to parry than a cut. So its use is rather devalued.

[Philistine]

Also, the theory that the thrust is quicker than the cut is rather irrelevant in sabre due to the existence of right of way.

--Philistine

[oiuyt]

I agree with Inq. on this one. With a cut I can read your defense and change to a very different target requiring a greatly changed defense on your part.

Changing from a flank cut to a chest cut (and back and forth and back and forth) is quick and easy with a slight hand/finger action. The defensive reaction going back and forth from 3 to 4 (and back and forth and back and forth) requires significantly larger arm movements. With a point attack, while I can quickly disengage with only small finger actions, I'm not requiring a particularly large defensive movement out of you so I gain relatively a smaller advantage.

-B :)

[Tireur]

A point attack may be more direct, but it is also more limited and more predictable.

I find the point to be effective because it's unexpected. As long as it's not overused.

[GGK]

So if you are using the saber correctly you are hitting your opponent w/ the last inch. Not the entire edge. If you do it is easy to change lines and switch between point and cut, and vica-versa.
Using a saber too much like an epee is taking a chance on giving up right of way.
And of course never using the point is giving up a portion of the game.

[deadly lefty]

exactly I totally agree with GGK. hey GGK does GK=Goal Keeper. that might just be my soccer roots kicking in

[retardedspleen]

you have a lot more options with cuts, theres all types of different attacks that arnt point in line. Point in line is usualy better for the "oh yeah? deal with this!" its the attack you dont use as often as cuts. Its a lot slower. And if the fencer knows how to defeat PIN, then its a great deal easier to defeat.

I always used PIN when somebody was being a little too offensive. If i was Bored, or if i was just not having good luck with anything else.

PIN has some nice little tricks in it, thats what most people use it for. Fake line, (when they go for a beat attack) stop cut, or fake line attack into preperation.


Theres something to be said for the speed of a cut.


Chris Triplett

[pkt]

In the 2002 MS [no, not S&M, Men's Sabre] WC, Pillet got at least two direct point attacks on Pzdniakov...

I've successfully used the point attack in tournies as a direct attack or as a 2nd-intention "attack": point attack-parry 5- open-eye-riposte is a good combo to use.

PK