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sdcox · 03-26-2002, 05:39 AM

Hello,
Can you qualify for summer nationals cadet and youth events at division qualifiers?

Thanks,
Susan

Peach · 03-26-2002, 05:59 AM

Check out the rules for qualifying at <a href="http://www.usfencing.org/Documents/Rules/OpsMan/QualPaths.asp" target="_blank">http://www.usfencing.org/Documents/Rules/OpsMan/QualPaths.asp</a>

For cadets, it says, aside from being on the national rolling standings, the fencer can:

Place in the top 30% (with a minimum of 2) of the Division U-16 qualifying competition [Host Division qualifies double the number of normal qualifiers]

Likewise, for Youth-14, it says:

Place in the top 30% (with a minimum of 2) of the Division Youth 14 qualifying competition [Host Division qualifies double the number of normal qualifiers]

Youth-12 and Youth-10 events are open to all qualified (meaning correct age) fencers.

sdcox · 03-26-2002, 06:33 AM

Thanks a bunch!

D'Artagnan1673 · 03-26-2002, 07:55 AM

Does anyone know about when the USFA generally decides the venue for the next year's nationals?

D'Artagnan1673 · 03-26-2002, 08:05 AM

Here's a question,

on the criteria for fencing div III, it it gives the following criteria,

1. to have fenced at the division qualifiers for div II

2. to have qualified for div II

3. Fenced in the 2002 section championships

is this an either/or, or must you meet all three criteria?

I am almost positive that it is an either/or, or what would the point be in having a div III if only div II could fence it, but I just want to be positive.

damianip · 03-26-2002, 08:17 AM

[quote]Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673:
Here's a question,

on the criteria for fencing div III, it it gives the following criteria,

1. to have fenced at the division qualifiers for div II

2. to have qualified for div II

3. Fenced in the 2002 section championships

is this an either/or, or must you meet all three criteria?

I am almost positive that it is an either/or, or what would the point be in having a div III if only div II could fence it, but I just want to be positive.<hr></blockquote>

By showing up for the Divisional/Sectional qualifiers (I'm sure about this) or Sectional championships(?)and fencing, you qualify for Div III.

If you've qualified for Div II you must have gone to the qualifiers, so you have qualified for Div III.

However, if you are classified C or better (at the time of the qualifiers), you can't fence Div III.

I think I got it right. Whether I've made it any clearer is questionable.

Paolo

Purple Fencer · 03-26-2002, 09:01 AM

[quote]Originally posted by damianip:


By showing up for the Divisional/Sectional qualifiers (I'm sure about this) or Sectional championships(?)and fencing, you qualify for Div III.

If you've qualified for Div II you must have gone to the qualifiers, so you have qualified for Div III.

However, if you are classified C or better (at the time of the qualifiers), you can't fence Div III.

I think I got it right. Whether I've made it any clearer is questionable.

Paolo<hr></blockquote>

Div I: qualificatin is by placing in the to 30% of the sectional championships for that weapon.

Div II: Qualification is at the Divisoinal level.

Div III: Since many divisions combine the Div II/III events, all you have to do is compete in the Div II/III qualifier, and you're in for Div III...even if there are 100 fencers and you come in dead last!

You CAN fence Div III if you get your "C" AFTER the qualifier. Example...a teammate of mine was going to fence Div II foil in Reno, 'cause he was a "C". AFTER sending in his entry, he earned his "A", but was still able to compete in Div II.

These qul paths do not include any auto-quals or quals viua national points.

edew · 03-26-2002, 09:07 AM

Ok, time to clear the air. You need to have a D or lower classification at the time of qualifying. That's the sole eligibility issue.

Second, you have to show up at the Div II qualifiers. Not the division championships/sectional qualifiers (so Paolo, you're wrong about you being sure about it). Competing in the division championships/sectional qualifiers don't do squat for qualifying for Div II or Div III (or veterans or U-16, U-19 or whatever else). Division Championships/sectional qualifiers are, well, qualifiers to the sectional championships. However, if you qualify to your section's sectional championships (and each section have different qualifying arrangements: some have top 30%, others take top 6 for 12 entries, one for each additional 6, others take top 10 for 12 entries, one for each additional 12 (or parts thereof), etc), AND you're eligible for competing in Div III, then by attending and competing in your sectional championships, you will qualified to compete in Div III Nationals.

The qualifying paths stated in the USFA website are either/ors, you don't have to meet all requirements (and in some cases, some people can't definitely meet them all, since some of them have age-restrictions).

Note that there are many division qualifier event categories. Your division (i.e., your division officers) need to schedule these events. These events are, in order of dates (more or less) are:

1. JO qualifiers U-20/U-17 Qualifiers
2. Division Championships/Sectional Qualifiers
3. Division Team Championships/Sectional team (if any) Qualifiers/Div I Nationals team Qualifiers/Open Team National Qualifiers
4. Div II/III/veteran Summer National Qualifiers5. U-16/Y-14 Summer National Qualifiers
6. U-19 Team Summer National Qualifiers
Each numbered item is an event category (per sex/weapon, of course). So those six items must be held on different dates/weekends.

damianip · 03-26-2002, 10:13 AM

[quote]Originally posted by edew:
Ok, time to clear the air. You need to have a D or lower classification at the time of qualifying. That's the sole eligibility issue.

Second, you have to show up at the Div II qualifiers. Not the division championships/sectional qualifiers (so Paolo, you're wrong about you being sure about it). Competing in the division championships/sectional qualifiers don't do squat for qualifying for Div II or Div III (or veterans or U-16, U-19 or whatever else). Division Championships/sectional qualifiers are, well, qualifiers to the sectional championships. However, if you qualify to your section's sectional championships (and each section have different qualifying arrangements: some have top 30%, others take top 6 for 12 entries, one for each additional 6, others take top 10 for 12 entries, one for each additional 12 (or parts thereof), etc), AND you're eligible for competing in Div III, then by attending and competing in your sectional championships, you will qualified to compete in Div III Nationals.

The qualifying paths stated in the USFA website are either/ors, you don't have to meet all requirements (and in some cases, some people can't definitely meet them all, since some of them have age-restrictions).

Note that there are many division qualifier event categories. Your division (i.e., your division officers) need to schedule these events. These events are, in order of dates (more or less) are:

1. JO qualifiers U-20/U-17 Qualifiers
2. Division Championships/Sectional Qualifiers
3. Division Team Championships/Sectional team (if any) Qualifiers/Div I Nationals team Qualifiers/Open Team National Qualifiers
4. Div II/III/veteran Summer National Qualifiers5. U-16/Y-14 Summer National Qualifiers
6. U-19 Team Summer National Qualifiers
Each numbered item is an event category (per sex/weapon, of course). So those six items must be held on different dates/weekends.<hr></blockquote>

Eric,

Our tournament chair has told me the following:

Just by showing up at our Div II/III qualifiers, I get fence in the Div III nationals. Since I'm old I get to go to the Veteran nationals. This would qualify me by the criterion in subparagraph a below.

To get another chance at qualifying for Div II, I would have to go to the Open Sectional Champs. To qualify to go to this I need to particpate in the Division Championships and Sectional Qualifier for my section (Mid-Atlantic). If I go to this sectional and I didn't go to the Div II/III I would now qualify by having been to the Division Championships and Sectional Qualifier. This would be the case noted in subparagraph b.

Those are the qualifying paths used in our section.

So from the ops book which I know Eric can quote chapter and verse"

[quote]The following members of the USFA who meet the eligibility requirements in Chapter
III:Section 1:A(2) above are eligible to participate in the Division III individual competitions
in the same weapon in which they meet the qualification criteria, provided that they are
classified as Class D or lower at the time that they so qualify:
(a) Any fencer who competed in the Division’s Division II Qualifying Competitions
or the I-A Sectional Championships in that fencer’s Division or Section in the
season of the competition.
(b) The qualifiers to this tournament’s Division II Individual National
Championships.<hr></blockquote>

So, Eric, I certainly summarized poorly previously, but I don't think I'm wrong (or at least maybe I need to be re-educated, but that's the word from our division).

And second, do all divisions do this the same way, at least with respect to combining championships and qualifiers?

Paolo

edew · 03-26-2002, 10:21 AM

Paolo, you wrote, "By showing up for the Divisional/Sectional qualifiers (I'm sure about this)..." and that is incorrect.

Firstly, what is the Divisional qualifiers, if I'm interpreting the "/" right? The division championships, in all sections I know, are sectional championship qualifiers. Very few (if any) sections require a separate event to qualify to the sectional championships. Just by participating in the Division Championships/Sectional Qualifiers does not get you into the sectional championships, unless your section has a very generous qualifying criteria. That may be the case now, but when I was a member of the mid-Atlantic section, it had been the top 6 for 12 entries, and one additional qualifier for every additional 6 or part thereof. It's not just showing up and fencing. Maybe the mid-Atlantic section has changed its qualifying requirements (the Pacific Coast Section recently changed it to allow more people to qualify, but it's not 100% of those who compete, although given some circumstances, it could be greater than 100%).

DJ Apostrophe · 03-26-2002, 10:38 AM

some divisions are rediculous about div champs / section qualifiers... CT division for example has two seperate events... their schedule lists (on march 3rd) North Atlantic Section Senior Qualifying Rounds and on Apr 14 they listCt Div Championship... only reason i can think of to do that... is if you have people good enough to win the div. championship but too young to compete in the 'senior' sectional qualifier... also... the North Atlantic Section is 100% qualification from the sectional qualifier... just my 2 cents <img src="graemlins/fett.gif" border="0" alt="[The Fett]" />

damianip · 03-26-2002, 10:39 AM

[quote]Originally posted by edew:
Paolo, you wrote, "By showing up for the Divisional/Sectional qualifiers (I'm sure about this)..." and that is incorrect.

Firstly, what is the Divisional qualifiers, if I'm interpreting the "/" right? The division championships, in all sections I know, are sectional championship qualifiers. Very few (if any) sections require a separate event to qualify to the sectional championships. Just by participating in the Division Championships/Sectional Qualifiers does not get you into the sectional championships, unless your section has a very generous qualifying criteria. That may be the case now, but when I was a member of the mid-Atlantic section, it had been the top 6 for 12 entries, and one additional qualifier for every additional 6 or part thereof. It's not just showing up and fencing. Maybe the mid-Atlantic section has changed its qualifying requirements (the Pacific Coast Section recently changed it to allow more people to qualify, but it's not 100% of those who compete, although given some circumstances, it could be greater than 100%).<hr></blockquote>

OK,

In order to keep this from becoming a semantic argument, let me give our schedule (for épée only) for our division. These were the pertinent competitions with regard to the nationals. The entries are lifted verbatim from the NJ division web site. My comments are in italics.

[quote]
2/10 Division II/III Qualifier - Epee (Santelli)
WE - 10:00
ME - 11:00
By just showing up at the above comp, I qualified for Div III and Veterans at the nationals

3/24 Division Championships and Mid-Atlantic Qualifier - Epee (Santelli)
WE - 9:00
ME - 10:00
Team Qualifier will follow the conclusion of the event.

I had to go to this one to qualify for the Senior Open Sectionals listed below. I only had to compete. This gave me nothing directly with regard to the nationals but allowed me to go to the Senior Sectionals

5-4/5 Senior Sectionals (Teaneck High School) **pre-registration required**
Schedule is post on the Mid-Atlantic Section website

By just showing up here (if I didn't show up at the Division II/III Qualifier) I would now qualify for DIV III and Veterans, but I had to go to the Division Championships and Mid-Atlantic Qualifier to get here.

<hr></blockquote>

So that's how we do it here in NJ.

Paolo

D'Artagnan1673 · 03-26-2002, 10:48 AM

<img src="graemlins/evild.gif" border="0" alt="[Evil]" /> hehe, I love causing discord with my questions!!! <img src="graemlins/evild.gif" border="0" alt="[Evil]" />

oiuyt · 03-26-2002, 11:21 AM

Paolo in his most recent post both agrees with Eric and with the way things actually work. Eric's right that this is NOT what Paolo said originally.

CT is not the only division to seperate sectional qualifiers from divisional championships. Hudson-Berkshire also does this. Until people complained about it last year, CT had their div II/III NQ designated as divisional championships (obviously a problem if there are any A's or B's in the division.....).

As mentioned in DJ Apostrophe's post North Atlantic section has 100% qualification from the division-level sectional qualifiers. Wouldn't be surprised if other sections do this as well (apparently Mid-Atlantic is also like this).

-B

damianip · 03-26-2002, 11:21 AM

[quote]Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673:
 <img src="graemlins/evild.gif" border="0" alt="[Evil]" /> hehe, I love causing discord with my questions!!! <img src="graemlins/evild.gif" border="0" alt="[Evil]" /> <hr></blockquote>

It's not discord. It just shows how unnecessarily confusing things can get. It's two sides of the story.

Eric is an experienced fencer and officer within his division (section maybe?). He knows his procedures because he has first hand experience in the administration of these comps and participation as a competitor for years.

I, on the other hand, am the occasional rec fencer who decided that he should get to some national comps before retirement age. I rely on what my division and fellow fencers tell me. I can relate to the confusion everyone seems to experience because I'm going through it too.

Just when I think I've got it figured out, Eric ruins it for me.

Paolo

damianip · 03-26-2002, 11:52 AM

[quote]Originally posted by oiuyt:
Paolo in his most recent post both agrees with Eric and with the way things actually work. Eric's right that this is NOT what Paolo said originally.
<hr></blockquote>

OK Brad,

I said:

"By showing up for the Divisional/Sectional qualifiers (I'm sure about this) "

This part I'm sure of and I think that's what I said subsequently also. Basically, in our division if you show up at the, in NJ Division terminology, "Division II/III Qualifier", you're in the DIV III nationals (assuming proper eligibility).

I then added:

"Sectional championships(?)"

The question mark meaning I'm not sure because we do indeed combine things around here in NJ.

I think I've been consistent throughout. Is it that extra "/sectional" thing that's causing the problems? Maybe it's time for my nap. I don't think I've ever managed to get so confused in so little time.

I stand by whatever I said whenever I said it. I think at this point, I'll just lie and claim that English is a second language for me.

Paolo

D'Artagnan1673 · 03-26-2002, 11:54 AM

I know, I just thought it sounded funny. Still, you have to admit, then whenver I do ask a question, it often turns into a big discussion. I am not saying that is a bad thing, it is just funny.

edew · 03-26-2002, 03:48 PM

I think the point here is that different sections have different rules on who (how many) qualify from the divisions' sectional qualifier event (whether that event is also the Division Championships or a separate event is irrelevant).

To say that just to attend and compete in the Division Championships (which in Paolo's and my case, is also the sectional qualifiers, but not in oiuyt's CT division's case) will qualify one to the sectional championships would be misleading because many other sections don't operate that way. And frankly, I would think that the Mid-Atlantic should not work that way as well (and the northeast section as well).

Note that it's the section that defines how many people from each qualifier will qualify to the sectional championships, not the division.

oiuyt · 03-26-2002, 06:01 PM

Actually CT was DJApostrophe's example, H-B was the example of that category that _I_ added. Of course both of us are in New England division which runs similar to NJ and Nor Cal.

Whether or not merely fencing in div champs or sectional qualifiers will qualify one to sectionals, doing so CERTAINLY won't qualify one to div III nationals (except in the abberant and non-USFA legal case of the way CT division used to run). And THAT was the original question.

K, I think we've basically been engaging in quite enough corporal punishment of this deseased equine... on to the next topic.

-B

damianip · 03-26-2002, 06:04 PM

[quote]Originally posted by edew:
I think the point here is that different sections have different rules on who (how many) qualify from the divisions' sectional qualifier event (whether that event is also the Division Championships or a separate event is irrelevant).

To say that just to attend and compete in the Division Championships (which in Paolo's and my case, is also the sectional qualifiers, but not in oiuyt's CT division's case) will qualify one to the sectional championships would be misleading because many other sections don't operate that way. And frankly, I would think that the Mid-Atlantic should not work that way as well (and the northeast section as well).

Note that it's the section that defines how many people from each qualifier will qualify to the sectional championships, not the division.<hr></blockquote>

Eric,

You bring up the excellent point that I had not even considered in my naivete:

The rules are a little bit different from section to section. I didn't think it could work like that.

OK, sorry Brad, I'm done now. This pony's passed on...

Paolo