Road To Athens 2004

[JEC]

In just over three months, the qualifying FIE season to earn points will end. Officially, it ends on March 31, 2004. Zonal qualifying tournaments for those fencers that have not qualified and whose country has not reached the maximum number of fencers would be held in April. Final announcements for names of fencers who are participating in the Athens Olympics is expected early in May.
Looking at the Rankings today, who qualifies in the American Continent? Below are the "choosen ones"

This is the official FIE criteria to qualify to Athens:
FIE document - qualification

For example, in Men's Epee, the first 11 are European teams, then in 12th is South Korea, followed by the USA. The closest team in the zone is Canada at 17th and Cuba en 23rd place. According to rules, the first four teams qualify. In addition, one team per zone qualifies. If the USA keeps its place, the American fencers would qualify. As the American fencers qualify, then they will not be counted against the next two best individual fencers in the zone.

Road to Athens

Men's Epee (includes Kuwait and Oslo)
Team rankings:
13. USA - 131 points
17. Canada - 115 points
23. Cuba - 57 points
24. Chile - 56 points
Individual rankings:
26. Puerto Rico - Jonathan Peña - 70 points
36. USA - Soren Thompson - 60 points
48. USA - Eric Hansen - 52 points
56. MEX - Arturo Simont-Zeron - 47 points
61. USA - Weston Kelsey - 43 points
62. CAN - Yann Bernard - 39 points
69. CAN - Charles St-Hilaire - 38 points
70. CAN - Laurie Shong - 38 points
74. USA - Cody Mattern - 35 points
76. Cuba - Andres Carrillo Anaya - 34 points
79. Venezuela - Sylvio Fernandez - 32 points

Thus at this point, the USA team, Jonathan Peña (Puerto Rico) and Arturo Simont-Zeron (Mexico) qualify for Athens 2004. In addition, the winner of the zonal olympic competition.

Men's Foil (including Vienna and Copenhagen)
Team rankings:
8. USA - 170 points
17. Canada - 85 points
20. Cuba - 51 points
21. Puerto Rico - 49 points
Individual rankings:
31. USA - Dan Kellner - 54 points
38. USA - Jonathan Tiomkin - 47 points
48. CAN - Joshua McGuire - 32 points
79. USA - Jedediah Dupree - 19 points
91. MEX - Edgar Chumacero - 17 points
121. Venezuela - Enrique Dasilva - 10 points
140. Venezuela - Rafael Suarez - 7 points

Thus at this point, the USA team, Joshua McGuire (Canada) and Edgar Chumacero (Mexico) qualify for Athens 2004. In addition, the winner of the zonal olympic competition.

[Army Fencer]

Thanks! That clears things up a lot!

It looks like we might actually have a lot of Americans going, and that we'll be sending solid teams!

[JEC]

Men's Sabre
Team rankings (Top ranked per zone):
10. USA - 130 points
16. Canada - 67 points
17. Cuba - 57 points
Individual rankings:
6. USA - Keeth Smart - 181 points
28. USA - Ivan Lee - 57 points
33. CAN - Michel Boulos - 48 points
40. USA - Jason Rodgers - 39 points
52. USA - Timothy Hageman - 29 points
70. Cuba - Candido Alberto Maya-Camejo - 18 points
85. MEX - Salvador Ramirez - 14 points

At the present point, Keeth Smart and the USA team qualify; Michel Boulos (Canada) and Candido Maya-Camejo (Cuba) also qualify. In addition, the winner of the zonal qualifying competition.

[JEC]

Women's Epee
Team rankings:
11. Canada - 141 points
13. USA - 123 points
18. Cuba - 90 points
Individual rankings:
2. CAN - Sherraine MACCAY - 175 points
53. Colombia - Angela Maria ESPINOSA - 39 points
64. Cuba - Aime GOMEZ CHIVAS - 32 points
65. CAN - Monique KAVELAARS - 32 points
66. USA - Elisabeth SPILMAN - 31 points
69. USA - Maya LAWRENCE - 30 points
74. CAN - Marie Eve PELLETIER - 27 points

At this point, Sherraine MACCAY and CANADA qualify; Angela Maria Espinosa (Colombia) and Aime Gomez Chivas (Cuba) qualify as top 2 individual (not in the participating team which at this point is Canada) in the zone. In addition, the winner of the zonal qualifying competition early next year.

[JEC]

Women's Foil and Saber
There is no team competition, and 24 fencers will be in each of these events, plus fencers from the host country, Greece (Up to 8 fencers distributed between team and individual events of their choice as it sees fit).

The top 8 at the FIE individual ranking at end of season with maximum of 2 per country.
Foil - None in our continent.
Saber -
1. Sada Jacobson - USA - 217 points

The top 2 of our zone (after the top 8 are included)
Foil:
33. Erinn Smart - USA - 44 points
49. Emily Cross - USA - 29 points
50. Iris Zimmermann - USA - 29 points
90. Hanna Thompson - USA - 10 points
Saber:
11. Mariel Zagunis - USA - 79 points
12. Emily Jacobson - USA - 77 points
31. Christine Becker - USA - 32 points
32. Ana FAEX MIELIN - Cuba - 30 points

In addition, the top 2 of our zonal qualifying tournament early next year.

Thus, at this moment, it appears that:
For Women's Foil, Erinn Smart and Emily Cross qualify. Iris appears to still have a chance.
For Women's Saber, Sada Jacobson, Mariel Zagunis and Emily Jacobson appear to be on their way.

[penguin]

Originally posted by JEC
Women's Foil and Saber
There is no team competition, and only 28 fencers will be in each of these events, with 4 from the host country, Greece.

The top 8 at the FIE individual ranking at end of season with maximum of 2 per country.

In addition, the top 2 of our zonal qualifying tournament early next year.

Thus, at this moment, it appears that:
For Women's Foil, Erinn Smart and Emily Cross qualify. Iris appears to still have a chance.
For Women's Saber, Sada Jacobson, Mariel Zagunis and Emily Jacobson appear to be on their way.

I'm afriad that you are wrong, JEC. Firstly, there is an absolute maximum of 2 per country for WF and WS. Secondly, for fencers selected under the second criteria (first 8 on the individual AOR by zone) there is a maximum of one per country. So, one of Emily or Erin or Iris could go, not 2 or 3. If you are being pedantic, they all still have a chance, but from the way you expressed it, it sounded like 2 could go, or all 3. In fact, only 1 of these 3 will qualify. It would therefore have been pertinent to list the next fencer(s) from the American zone, from other countries, as one of these will go from the ranklist. Similarly, for women's sabre.

It is important that you are very careful when you put up these assessments, as people can get confused about their chances to qualify (or think that the FIE has changed the rules). It can upset people's equilibrium temporarily, until they triple check and make sure that their own understanding of the qualification system is, in fact, correct.

[P00Man]

are the olympics for fencing, team wise, different than all the other sports? cause i thought each country got to send its own team, at least for the other sports

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

Originally posted by P00Man
are the olympics for fencing, team wise, different than all the other sports? cause i thought each country got to send its own team, at least for the other sports

You are plain wrong.

Many, if not most Olympic team sports have qualification paths whee the team must fulfill criteria from the International governing body. This goes for Soccer, Ice hockey, Field hockey, at least. There are also several individual sports where there are such limitations also -wrestling, for example. Imagine a soccer tourney where all National Olympic Commitees have sent the national teams! 200 teams, that would take months! The soccer WC, which hosts 36 teams, takes over a month. The Olympic games are overflowing with participants as it is, they can´t let every weak country field as big a team as they wish!

Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[JEC]

Originally posted by penguin
I'm afriad that you are wrong, JEC. Firstly, there is an absolute maximum of 2 per country for WF and WS. Secondly, for fencers selected under the second criteria (first 8 on the individual AOR by zone) there is a maximum of one per country.

At the top of the thread, I placed a link to the "FIE document" (check their website directly, at the top left tab, documents is one of the options, then select the top of the documents), which in page 3 reads (bold is mine):

2) Qualification individuelle pour les armes n’ayant pas une compétition par équipe
Il reste 24 places pour chaque arme qui seront réparties de la manière suivante :
• les 8 premiers du Classement Officiel de la FIE individuel (2 maximum par pays);
• les 8 premiers du C.O.A. individuel et par zone, à raison d’un seul tireur par pays, (3 pour l’Europe, 2 pour l’Asie-Océanie, 2 pour l’Amérique, 1 pour l’Afrique) ;
• les 8 tireurs issus suite à des épreuves de qualifications des zones qui sont ouvertes, à raison d’un seul tireur par pays et par arme, aux pays qui n’ont pas de tireur(euse) qualifié(e) dans l’arme concernée par les deux critères précédents (3 pour l’Europe, 2 pour l’Asie-Océanie, 2 pour l’Amérique, 1 pour l’Afrique)
Il est entendu qu’en aucun cas un pays ne peut sélectionner plus de 3 tireurs par arme.

[oiuyt]

How do ties get split for this? Going by JEC's quoting of the standings Emily and Iris each have 29 points and would be tied for the final qualifying slot from our zone. Assuming that next April (or May or whenever the cutoff is) they are still tied for that slot how is the qualifier determined? Would it make a difference if they were from different countries (but in the same zone so still the same slot)? Given the nature of how the WC points are distributed there are tons of ties once you're out of the very top of the list, I assume that this issue comes up regularly. What's the standard practice?

-B :)

[hscoach]

Maybe if several people starting sending this information to FoxSports, CNN, NBC Sports, Sports Illustrated, etc they would finally see that fencing in the USA is newsworthy.

[The0ne]

that would be really nice. Men's foil from the US is doing relly well. . . In our area. I wonder why Cuba is not doing so well, they were a powerhouse in the past. Is it lack of money?

[1936]

Originally posted by The0ne
that would be really nice. Men's foil from the US is doing relly well. . . In our area. I wonder why Cuba is not doing so well, they were a powerhouse in the past. Is it lack of money?

The fact that they(cubans) don't have any money makes a huge difference. But honestly, at the moment, there is no foil talent there. When Gregory and Tuckers retired they left a huge void- that sofar no one has been able to fill.

[DHCJr]

Originally posted by P00Man
are the olympics for fencing, team wise, different than all the other sports? cause i thought each country got to send its own team, at least for the other sports

Did you hear the news, Tommy Lasorda will not be the Manager for the U.S. Olympic Baseball team. In fact, no one will be, since our team didn't qualify and will not be at the Olympics. Remember the 1980 Winter Olympics. The U.S. Hockey Team would never have won the Gold, if the Olympics hadn't been in the U.S. They hadn't qualified to go to the Olympics, but the host country, got in automatically.

As said above, you have to qualify.

[The0ne]

so technically fencing is a stronger sport than Baseball in the USA. . .

[edew]

Originally posted by oiuyt
How do ties get split for this? Going by JEC's quoting of the standings Emily and Iris each have 29 points and would be tied for the final qualifying slot from our zone. Assuming that next April (or May or whenever the cutoff is) they are still tied for that slot how is the qualifier determined? Would it make a difference if they were from different countries (but in the same zone so still the same slot)? Given the nature of how the WC points are distributed there are tons of ties once you're out of the very top of the list, I assume that this issue comes up regularly. What's the standard practice?

-B

I would imagine if there is a tie, the national governing board (in this case, USOC and USFA) will make the determination based on other national points and what-not: domestic results, total national team points, whatever.

For example, even though the FIE hands out the same points for those who finish 17 through 32, the US don't give the same. So if Emily finishes 18th while Iris finished 23rd at enough events, Emily would take the nod.

[JEC]

Originally posted by oiuyt
How do ties get split for this? Going by JEC's quoting of the standings Emily and Iris each have 29 points and would be tied for the final qualifying slot from our zone. Assuming that next April (or May or whenever the cutoff is) they are still tied for that slot how is the qualifier determined? Would it make a difference if they were from different countries (but in the same zone so still the same slot)? Given the nature of how the WC points are distributed there are tons of ties once you're out of the very top of the list, I assume that this issue comes up regularly. What's the standard practice?
-B

I accessed the FIE website for all the above information yesterday. The link that I provided was in French, but here is their official english translation:
Official FIE Document regarding CRITERIA FOR QUALIFICATION TO THE OLYMPICS

Please note that according to the document:
"AOR * The Adjusted Official Ranking is the FIE Official Ranking modified as follows:
For the weapon disciplines in which there is a team event, we remove the names of all the fencers per country and per weapon discipline who have qualified by teams, and for the other countries only the highest-ranked fencer per country and per weapon is kept. For the weapon disciplines in which there is no team event, we keep only the 3 highest ranked fencers per country and per weapon, and all the other names are removed."

Now, rankings are based on rolling points and it appears that when ties occur the last result earning points is the tie-braker. When one clicks on the fencers of other weapons, there is a pop-up window indicating the results and points earned. This feature of the website does not appear to work for the Women's Foil ranking right now, but if you examine other ties in other weapons the fencer who did better in the last competition is placed in the ranking ahead.

[DHCJr]

Originally posted by The0ne
so technically fencing is a stronger sport than Baseball in the USA. . .

No, it means, Baseball doesn't care about the Olympics. Remember the last Olympics, were any Major League players on the team? Baseball banned our best. The Olympics compete with Baseball. You don't help your competition.

I wish we still kept out the professionals, but even fencing allows professionals and have for a long time.

[KShan5[PrFC]]

Why shoudl the Olympics be an amateur competition? It is for the best in the world IMO. If an athlete is a professional in a specific sport because he excels at it, then he should still be allowed to compete as "one of the best."

[edew]

Because the original Olympics charter as espoused by the Baron de Coubertin was for the best amateur athlete. There were professional athletes at that time (probably boxers and jockeys and such) and they didn't really exude the nobility of sport so much as the male version of being a prostitute: using one's body for monetary gains. He didn't want any of that.