Who thinks fleche should be allowed in High School Fencing

[fencingguy]

... The fleche should be allowed. It's stupid to not have it. The onus of control lies with the coaches to teach their fencers how to do footwork, and if someone has a problem with control card them.

I really shouldn't respond to this thread because it's annoying me, but I can't seem to resist. Everyone seems to have this misconception that the fleche isn't an effective attack, or that it's this overly simplistic, easily counterable, action. The problem is you're fencing people who are not skilled enough to use it successfully. And as for Stryder's comment it is NOT a desperation move. A fleche is an important part of any foil or epee fencer's game. It needs to be used intelligently and at the right moment, but when it is, it's a great way to score a touch. If we did look at the world championship bout from 2003, I think that we'd actually see Kolobkov fleching more than Jeannet. Arrrrgggghhhhh... Frustration... <<deep breath>> ok, I'm done for now.

[Flunge]

As someone who originally taught Fencingguy to fleche (about a decade ago) and has recently been hit by Fencingguy's much-improved fleche, I gotta agree with him here.

Let's get some hard info into the argument. Have any of the kinesthiologist/pliometric statisticians measured the comparative force or speed behind a fleche or lunge? How about distance covered? It's obvious to those who use the fleche well, but someone quantify it for us. I don't have time. I need to go to teach more young kids to throw themselves down the strip in desperation.

[viojen]

Originally Posted by jeff

Since it seems that some places allow it in HS competition and others don't, I wonder if there are statistics to show whether or not that eliminating the fleche causes reduced injuries, or produces better fencers, or whatever...

That's an interesting point you have, and I'd like to see the numbers if they exist. But there's very little research done on injuries in fencing and that which has been done is not as in-depth as desired. The best I've found was located in the Epidemiology of Sports Medicine, a good study maybe for the sole reason that it explained why the results weren't that helpful. Very few records are kept about injuries and it is difficult to compare parameters (do you include practices, not just tournament bouts, when counting individual exposures to possible injury, for instance).
So, I like your question, but I don't think that such statistics exist.

And for the record, I've never heard anything about fleche being outlawed in CT HS fencing. On a whole my team just doesn't do it, because we can't do it well.

[ThornOfTheBlood]

By the way, just because you don't throw yourself at someone and run a mile past them, doesn't mean iti's not a fleche. Technically any attack where you use your back foot to carry you over is a fleche(if you hit that is)

[mrbiggs]

This is for foil only:

I think it's a good idea. Inexperienced flechers are not only dangerous, they ruin the sport. If you've ever seen someone fleche incorectly, you know what I mean. They run forward, try to hit, get parried, and then try to avoid the touch by running past. And, because their opponents often are not experienced either, they can't riposte. So the fencer who fleches wins the bout. So his opponent decides "why should I attack in control when I can avoid the riposte as well?" And so on.

Not all HS fencers are inexperinced, and not all don't know how to fleche. But many HS fencers are beginners, and I think that for the sake of the HS beginners, advanced moves that have to be used correctly for safety, and for the sake of the sport, it shouldn't be allowed.


In épée, it's absolutely necessary.

[JackSparrow]

So, no fleching for kids. And soon no lunging or smiling either. Another great idea to add to the popularity of our sport

[davtsung]

There needs to be some kind of limit as too how long a distance one can fleche can still have it considered an attack. Other than that, its a valid technique

[sabreman]

I agree with Jeff. I was a NJ high school sabre champion back in the the late 1970s and it didn't hurt me at the next level. Also NJ High School fencing has supplied some of the greatest fencers (see Westbrook, ect) in US history so it can't be all bad.

[daveappr]

I concur with both sabreman & Jeff on this issue. While the onus of teaching correct footwork may lie with the coach, the reality of the issue is that there will be those fencers who don't take their lessons too seriously and pay little attention to footwork; in the rush to 'improve' or score more often, will disregard things like distance and form to get a point. With a wide range of experience and instruction, (remembering many NJ high school fencers also train year round at salles other than their HS team), some are just not equipped to safely or correctly apply the fleche. Just my two cents, (and for the record I was also a NJ HS fencer who then fenced at Rutgers). Shadowhuntr points out that his HS league allows the fleche, but it is also not a varsity sport sponsored by the High Schools themselves, more of an aligned league of HS age competitiors following USFA rules.

[Robert (2)]

Originally Posted by davtsung

There needs to be some kind of limit as too how long a distance one can fleche can still have it considered an attack. Other than that, its a valid technique

There is. Read the rules on multiple crossing of the legs turns the action into a priority. Rarely called but it is actually there.

Robert

[nahouw]

Originally Posted by JackSparrow

So, no fleching for kids. And soon no lunging or smiling either. Another great idea to add to the popularity of our sport

That is not the point. The reason that NJ banned fleching in HS is because although we have many, many kids in NJ that go to clubs to augment their training, compete in NACs and Junior World Cups, and are capable and competent in fleching, the vast majority of kids are without a commitment to train in fencing , and just emulate what these kids are doing -- and since they are not trained in techinique, timing and appropriateness of the action, this has in the past created train wrecks.

We have about 1200 members in the NJ Division, approximately 75% are juniors, so, taking away the youth and college fencers, say that there are 300 HS fencers that compete in Division events. Probably only about 150 of that compete nationally and/or internationally. There are 30+ HS programs, 18 on a team for competition, plus JV, and nobody has cuts for fencing, so that amounts to probably about at least 1500 fencers in NJ HS programs. If only 10% can fleche correctly, and 90% cannot fleche correctly, but rather, just dangerously run and flail at their opponent, I hope you can understand why the fleche was banned in NJ HS fencing.

Most of the competent fencers in NJ HS are fine with the ban on the fleche -- they just adjust their fencing to not include a fleche and they still win. Much better than to permit the incompetent fencer to fleche at them and seriously injure them.

It is sensible for the NJ HS program to prohibit the fleche -- the vast majority of these fencers think that the fleche is just wildly charging and flailing at the other fencer -- the HS ADs don't want to deal with parent's complaints, the coaches don't want to deal with the referee's giving their students black cards for unintentional brutality, and I'm sure that the referee's and ADs don't even want to be part of a parent's legal complaint after one of these train wrecks.

[glowstix]

i'm glad i'm not in HS in NJ!! fleches are a main part of my game. everyone knows its coming and when i launch from the right distance, its good for 80% strike rate in epee. the key really is WHEN you launch.

[govsecrets]

i didn't know that fleching wasn't allowed at the high school level. i've never fenced in just a high school tournament, so this was a surprise to me. i'm in high school but all i've fenced are open tournaments and a couple of national ones. but out where i live, high school fencing isn't exactly all that common

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by govsecrets

i didn't know that fleching wasn't allowed at the high school level. i've never fenced in just a high school tournament, so this was a surprise to me. i'm in high school but all i've fenced are open tournaments and a couple of national ones. but out where i live, high school fencing isn't exactly all that common

Not all high school leagues, only New Jersey.

[great bowyer]

Originally Posted by FoilyGeezer

Now keep in mind that this is coming from someone who believes that nothing succeeds like simplicity. The fleche has it's place, as do many other tactics in fencing. You're right in saying that using it as your main strategy weakens you as a fencer, but the same is true of any move.

A fleche might work because you're quick and lucky. It also might work because you're quick and accurate too. Fencing (and this is especially true in longer bouts) can be a game of probability. If you insist on doing something over and over again, no matter what it is, you're going to get beaten by people intelligent enough to figure out how to defeat it more often than it defeats them.

Conversely, if what you are doing isn't working, you need to be able to draw something new from your bag of tricks in order to shift the momentum of a bout. A fleche can do that. It's only desperation when it doesn't work. In SOME cases it does work, though. Don't discount a strategy because because you observe it's mis-application by others.

the other weekend i was fencing in a tournament and fleched maybe once or twice until the last pool bout. i then found the a beat fleche worked extremly well, i won 5-1 with the last 4 being the fleche. it caught her and her coach completly off guard. if it works, use it until it does not work anymore.

[Scarlet Sword]

My first tourney was difficulter than it needed to be because I didn't fleche as much.