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Hyperion1250 · 01-14-2004, 06:31 PM

ok, I don't like yelling at people in my own HS circut (with the exclusion of a few other freshmen from stevenson) but.....
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD MAN, HAVE YOU NOT READ ANY OF THIS POST, OR THE "LOCATION" bar. These are NEW JERSEY rules.

Now.... A lot of the midwest coaches (SHS included) try to tell you that it's a rule, but nobody does "Cup Checks" and if you get hit there, it's you own issue. Though in epee we don't aim there deliberately.
As for the fleche.... Most of my opponents only fleche once or twice. I prefer a VERY stiff blade, and i use stop thrusts. When you impale your sternum on my blade for, at best, a double touch; you'll think twice about using the fleche.
At any rate, the fleche is mainly used for surprise, and if they stop thrust, you're in a world of hurt.

veeco · 01-14-2004, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hyperion1250
At any rate, the fleche is mainly used for surprise, and if they stop thrust, you're in a world of hurt.

Fleche used mainly for surprise? I think you need to work on those fleches, because you'll find out that fleches can and are used for much more than just a surprise effect. Some world cup bouts have actions on which 90% of the touches scored are done with a fleche, which seems to invalidate your theory. If you know the guy is going to do a fleche, it's not surprising anymore, is it? However despite the fact that you're not surprised by the fleche, you would still get hit...

Hyperion1250 · 01-14-2004, 09:13 PM

Excuse me, i'll yield a point.... i phrased that poorly and it wasn't what i meant. They are Useful for surprises, and AT THE HIGH SCHOOL LEVEL that is a main use, or as a lunge replacement by a few overly agressive fencers. Now, if you know your opponent is going to fleche, then you know EXACTLY what to counter and SHOULD know how to counter it. And therefore, not being surprised, you wouldn't get hit. But instead you would counter the fleche and riposte... Touche

grphiw · 01-14-2004, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by marianjvfencer
devilsEPPEE,

WHERE DO YOu LIve? I live in Illinois, and i have never heard of any of these rules. My fencing seniors at my high school actually recommend fleching as a last hit attack. I do it all the time. And I never get carded from doing it(except when i accidentally run into the person). And wearing a cup? It's recommended in our high school but it isn't actually a rule. Hope this helps. too bad if you can't fleche it can get pretty dramatic when you use it as a last hit for a win!!Hope I helped,

Timo

Although this would seem like a good tactic on paper, a lot of fencers expect this, at least in epee. Fleches are something to be used at an oppurtune moment where speed is key at lunge distance. Any farther would be suicide, as it gives them time to react to the fleche. It can add drama to a bout, but other than that as a last move to make the winning touch, it's way too expected as a move, which defeats the purpose of using a fleche as a surprise. It's a full-fledged attack, not something you can stop in mid-air. It's like if you always did the same combinations in each situation and your opponent has had the oppurtunity to study your reactions. You're cooked.

sabreman · 01-15-2004, 10:38 AM

There was no fleche back in 1970s when I fenced at Voorhees High. NJ High School has produced a lot of greats (Westbrook, Shelly, and on and on) so not sure how much impact it has had.

jeff · 01-15-2004, 11:15 AM

Coming into this thread late... As an FYI, the fleche is (or at least was) disallowed in NY City high school fencing too.

Magmalin · 01-24-2004, 11:55 PM

Coming from a school that has many people do it, I dont like it, but i do think that fleche should be allowed. Even though it never seems to work for me.. other Marian fencers seem to get far with it.

I agree that you can still see a Fleche comming, but some of the time you still do get hit. And.. this Is High school level..

I had a match at the JV tournment at New Trier where all they did was Fleche. It was an easy match to win because I knew how to counter and riposte because I was not suprized. But the person i was against was very good at it, and even though I knew it was comming, I was un-able to counter it.

Hyperion1250- Thats also awesome that your on the Marian Circut, such a small world XD.

bg0687 · 01-25-2004, 02:01 AM

You wouldn't have a chance against Teddy, even with a fleche. Believe me a fleche does not work on him at all as I am a teammate of his. By the way I'm only annoyed by the rule because sometimes during certain actions my feet cross. I do not do an actual fleching motion, I do a lunge and then a thrust forward sometimes if I miss and there is still an opening.

qatet · 01-25-2004, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by devilsEPEE
Hyperion that's not what a fleche is supposed to be though. It's more of you leaned so far forward on a lunge you need to move you back foot in front of you so you won't fall on your face. Or theres always that really nice jumping fleche in the big book of fencing, god if that really worked.

Ummm... well that would be a bad fleche. Better to learn to lunge properly so that you don't have to do the same thing each time just to save yourself from falling on your face. (predictability - always a good way to get hit) The same feeling of inevitable forwards movement is necessary in a fleche, but it's only a feeling, not an actual necessity. Like when your hand takes off and pulls your body into a good fast attack of any kind.

sabreklutz · 01-25-2004, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AndrewH
Meh, I could care less. Go sabre!

Amen to that. Why flesh when you can flunge?

jeff · 01-25-2004, 11:19 AM

I've just directed a few NJ high school matches, and I have to say that I'm in favor of keeping it illegal. The good high school fencers are fine - I'd allow them anything permitted by USFA and FIE. But, there are some less-skilled competitors that would probably never develop proper footwork (why bother when you can just run at the other guy), and there would be more on-strip collisions. Yes, proper application of the rules for corps-a-corps would do the trick, but unfortunately I think we have to nip it in the bud.

The quality of the coaching counts too. I carded one kid on Friday for barrelling into his opponent, and his coach didn't understand why. If the fleche were permitted, I think his kids would be instructed to run straight into their opponents.

ra2000a · 01-25-2004, 10:28 PM

::sigh:: high school fencing

not that it affects me, but i dont agree with taking out the fleche.

theres no fun to bouts!!

and, usually, an experience fencer will fleche, not a beginner and usually those kids will no how to do a proper fleche which decreases the chance for any "injuries" I know in my high school that only the top fencers will even use the fleche...

jeff · 01-26-2004, 05:51 PM

Since it seems that some places allow it in HS competition and others don't, I wonder if there are statistics to show whether or not that eliminating the fleche causes reduced injuries, or produces better fencers, or whatever...

telkanuru · 01-27-2004, 01:04 AM

As a HS(varsity) ME fencer in MA (huzzah for acronym-things) where this 'fleche' you speak of is quite legal, I find no problem with it. I would not classify myself as 'skilled', but for me, most fleches are merely free points, as the ones who use them are silly, inexperienced, and don't remember the 'always bind the blade' rule someone mentioned earlier. Morover, in the three years i've been doing HS meets and practices, I've only seen two people hurt by a fleche in epee. The first was performing the fleche and 'bound' my blade on line with his throat, which resulted in a bit of gasping, but he was fine within the minute. The second was where the guy who was fleched was hit in his... sabre brain? (odd tangent, in 3 years, I've never been hit there, but he fenced epee for 2 days and was hit there twice; some people have all the unluck).

The fleche, however, is a tactic over-employed by many over-aggressive HS fencers. Although my coach emphisizes stop hits to the hand, some (most notably one) coach(es) seem to teach their students the fleche and the fleche only. This results in the intimidation and victory over lesser opponents and humiliating defeat to ones who know how to react. For my varsity team, it's free points. Who can pass such a thing up?

fresfisher929 · 01-27-2004, 10:39 PM

Where i am we don't have a high school fencing league so this isn't an issue, but having fenced several high school age fencers from a high school clubs and more notably a couple from college clubs, beleive that the way to get touches is to run frantically down the strip waving their blade around. Just this weekend i fenced a college fencer of this persuasion and as soon as the bout started he would run down the strip, after every touch, he'd keep running down the strip, he had no foot work so to speak.
In a high school environment where some basketball coaches turned fencing are pressured to get students out there competing they'll give them minimum training before they throw them out there, and probably teach them how to "fleche" and the student will apply it since it seems really easy, its fast and it will work against less expeirienced fencers giving them the illusion of competence. So if you think you would like the fleche imagine that your 5'5" 100 pounds being ran at by a 6'5" 200 pound person who has no control...
Thats why i can completely understand why the fleche is banned in hs fencing.

telkanuru · 02-03-2004, 02:18 PM

The following occurs to me: If one is concerned about aggtressive and possible dangerous actions by untrained persons, why dosn't one also ban the pistol/orthapedic grip? I've been hit way to hard by way too many people who don't know how to use it. It only serves to hurt the fencing of inexperienced persons in terms of over-reliance on strength and a deemphisis on fingers for actions. If the fleche is dangerous enough to be disallowed, shouldn't the pistol grip go as well?

canthidefromme · 02-03-2004, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fresfisher929
So if you think you would like the fleche imagine that your 5'5" 100 pounds being ran at by a 6'5" 200 pound person who has no control...

Wow, that's skinny.

ShadowHuntr · 03-10-2004, 10:20 PM

fleches are legal in our high school league.

Zilverzmurfen · 03-11-2004, 05:54 AM

Hahaha, I never thought anyone could ever get the idea to EXCLUDE the flêche from fencing!

//Zz

CarlKnoch · 03-11-2004, 12:56 PM

I think you are incorrect in this idea you have. The surprise of the fleche isn't "that" you are doing it, but "when" you are doing it, and I'm sure that was what was meant in the original post.

The reason that the fleche works so often at higher levels is that it is done at the proper distance, with no hint as to "when" it's going to come. Sure I know he's going to attack with the fleche, and while I'm not surprised that he used it for the tenth time, I AM surprised "when" it comes. If I wasn't, I would have avoided it.

Cheers!
C

Quote:

Originally Posted by veeco

Fleche used mainly for surprise? I think you need to work on those fleches, because you'll find out that fleches can and are used for much more than just a surprise effect. Some world cup bouts have actions on which 90% of the touches scored are done with a fleche, which seems to invalidate your theory. If you know the guy is going to do a fleche, it's not surprising anymore, is it? However despite the fact that you're not surprised by the fleche, you would still get hit...