Who thinks fleche should be allowed in High School Fencing

[FoilyGeezer]

Originally posted by Stryder
Fleching is not a wise move.
It works, yes, but so do a lot of stupid things. They work once if you're quick and lucky. They work twice, three times even more if your opponant is dull and his coach never foresaw an opponant doing something so foolish. But if you find that fleching is a habit you can't break immediately, then you have weakened yourself as a fencer.

Perhaps that is why it is banned in certain high school competitions. Bad habits learned early will keep you from achieving later on.

Simple test: How many times do you see The world champion fleche?
The runner up probably did. It's an act of desperation.

Just my opinion.

Now keep in mind that this is coming from someone who believes that nothing succeeds like simplicity. The fleche has it's place, as do many other tactics in fencing. You're right in saying that using it as your main strategy weakens you as a fencer, but the same is true of any move.

A fleche might work because you're quick and lucky. It also might work because you're quick and accurate too. Fencing (and this is especially true in longer bouts) can be a game of probability. If you insist on doing something over and over again, no matter what it is, you're going to get beaten by people intelligent enough to figure out how to defeat it more often than it defeats them.

Conversely, if what you are doing isn't working, you need to be able to draw something new from your bag of tricks in order to shift the momentum of a bout. A fleche can do that. It's only desperation when it doesn't work. In SOME cases it does work, though. Don't discount a strategy because because you observe it's mis-application by others.

[devilsEPEE]

Thank you to everyone that agrees with me and even those who don't. The reason I think the Fleche isn't allowed is probably because the possibility of someone gettin hurt, it's definately no consideration for the reels as each school has to pay for there own and state tournaments are few and far between. The fleche is not a move of bad habit in my entire fecning career I've used it maybe 4 times. It's not like I want to just fleche all day long, but I want it for when I have that tough opponent that will require me to use my full arsenal of moves and tactics **coughcoughteddysherrillcoughcough**.

[Army Fencer]

Originally posted by Stryder
Fleching is not a wise move.

Time and a place.

If I know that I can get someone with a flesche multiple times in a row, I'm going to flesche. If it works, I'm going to use it.

I once used a flesche as my first move of the bout--it was within the first two seconds. I got the touche, and it stirred up my opponent so much that I was able to win 5-0, with very simple actions.

Plenty of strong fencers flesche, without it being an act of desperation.

[Hyperion1250]

I will repeat, i love people who fleche.... stop thrusts hurt the other guy; they're a good cure to people who fleche. The only downside is when you get some huge idiot who literally sprints at you and really bends your blade..... and to top it off, your stop thrust missed both his armpit and sternum.......... outside of that, i have no objection to fleching

[devilsEPEE]

Hyperion that's not what a fleche is supposed to be though. It's more of you leaned so far forward on a lunge you need to move you back foot in front of you so you won't fall on your face. Or theres always that really nice jumping fleche in the big book of fencing, god if that really worked.

[nahouw]

Originally posted by devilsEPEE
Thank you to everyone that agrees with me and even those who don't. The reason I think the Fleche isn't allowed is probably because the possibility of someone gettin hurt

That is exactly why the fleche is banned in HS fencing in NJ -- because of students potentially getting injured by fencers who do not know how or when to fleche properly.

NJ HS fencing is a very large program -- over 30 High Schools in NJ have a fencing program. Apparently, at some time in the past, fencers who did know how and when to fleche properly were copied by fencers who didn't, and problems occurred -- a fleche is a properly constructed, executed and timed action -- randomly charging at someone after they started an action is not only not a fleche, it is dangerous, and constitutes brutality.

Rather than the ADs dropping fencing programs from the HS due to the safety concern, the decision of the NJSIAA was to ban the fleche in order to keep the programs running and the school districts from lawsuits.

Independent fencers with National Points who compete in the State Championships do not have a problem with the rule of non-fleching; they understand and accept the fact of the safety issue, and since they are well-rounded and competent fencers, they are able to adjust their game accordingly.

[MyraTrue]

Hyperion: I think you're missing a basic creed in epee. Do NOTHING witout taking the blade. You don't just "run at someone" in epee. There is no RoW to protect you. You bind, you do something, but you remove their blade, you don't just run yourself onto it. On the other hand, I use the same tactics when fleched myself, so I know what you mean.

And I agree with the others who have said it. The fleche is a tool. And like tools, a good tool can do something useful, and a bad one just fouls up the bout and makes it harder on you. The same can be said for flicks, or any other attack you'd like to name.

Overuse of the fleche is sad. But a good fleche is useful, at the right time and in the right place. A good fencer, I think, knows when this is. The fleche can be used poorly, but it can be used well.

And there is really nothing so pretty to me as a well executed fleche. IT doesn't have to be fast of flashy, just good. Well timed, well executed.

I stand by the fleche.

[hscoach]

Myratrue you are right about a "good fleche" but the problem with NJ high school fencing is some of the fencers have only had a sword in their hand for two weeks before they start to fence in a meet. The schools have a mixed bag of fencers from very, very, new to Nationally Ranked fencers. If given the chance some of the new ones would point, charge and jab. I explain to my experienced fencers the reason for the rule and they totally agree. They do not want some of these kids charging at them. They have already had them gallopping at towards them. I would love to see the fleche allowed in the State Finals. Another rule NJ High Schools have that is not an USFA rule is that all male fencers must wear a cup. This is also for the safety of the fencers.

[devilsEPEE]

A cup what the hell? I've never had this rule enforced on me. Although I can definately se the reason even if you don't want to you can always hit someone in the nuts. I might just start wearing one for the hell of it cause I really want to have kids sometime. And thank you very much to MyraTrue, you are so right about epeeist always taking the blade. I'd do that stuff to if I weren't so lazy and fenced seriously most the time. But of the serious bouts I have fenced taking the blade in four coming downand around onto six under the blade and up is almost a gauraunteed hit but if the fencer is backing up as you lunge this you have to fleche for it to work.

[KShan5[PrFC]]

Originally posted by MyraTrue
I find that red card for falling debatable. You can't really question the director for NOT calling something, but last I looked, falling was no longer a cardable offense.

Falling is a cardable offense this year. They changed it for one year and changed it back due to a poor translation of the French FIE rule.

[grphiw]

A fleche, at least in my experience, also can have a pyschological effect on some fencers. I may make my opponent drop the blade down to eight (varies with situation, whether it be a feint or from four, or something else that may arrise), and if in lunging distance, fleche to my oppenent's six. If it succeeds, it can pump up the person who just fleched, and demoralize (sometimes) the person who just was fleched against because a weakness in their fencing was exposed with a fast attack, throwing them off balance mentally. Although this doesn't happen all the time, it's important to remember that fencing also includes the pyschological aspects, not just the theoretical strategy.

[The0ne]

I haven't heard a good arguement for keeping the felsche banned, the 5 who think it should be must have been Sabre fencers!!

[KShan5[PrFC]]

<<<<<< sabreur, fleche belongs, just not in sabre.

[grphiw]

Hrm... don't quite get it...

[KShan5[PrFC]]

Yeah dunno what happened, time to edit post.

[AndrewH]

Originally posted by hscoach
Another rule NJ High Schools have that is not an USFA rule is that all male fencers must wear a cup.

Um, no? I've never heard of this rule, ever in my four years of HS fencing. I've had directors who will make you unzip your jacket every bout to make sure you're wearing a plastron, and check for overgloves etc, but no one has ever said anything about a cup. The only people I could see needing one would be the epeeists, and then it's up to them. I don't know of anyone personally who does wear one though.

[hscoach]

I did not say it was enforced. Ask any NJ coach it is in their rules.

[J.Harris]

I've never even thought about the Fleche being banned (except in sabre)! I think i was being taught to fleche from about the age of 11?
As for wearing a box/cup I once caught someone... in that area in epee and he walked funny for a day or two... so maybe it should be brought into epee?

[devilsEPEE]

The cup issue seems to be a matter of choice and personal preference.

[marianjvfencer]

devilsEPPEE,

WHERE DO YOu LIve? I live in Illinois, and i have never heard of any of these rules. My fencing seniors at my high school actually recommend fleching as a last hit attack. I do it all the time. And I never get carded from doing it(except when i accidentally run into the person). And wearing a cup? It's recommended in our high school but it isn't actually a rule. Hope this helps. too bad if you can't fleche it can get pretty dramatic when you use it as a last hit for a win!!Hope I helped,



Timo