An idea

[Millamber]

I have been thinking lately about scoring lights. The latest idea seems to be lights inside masks, but one can see where that could be very distracting to a fencer.

I am an epee fencer so that's what I normally think about. That being said, what would happen if instead of masks being wired for lights, we wired the bellguard?

In my head I am seeing small pilot holes around a bellguard into which are put a ring of LED's covered with a grounded mesh. On a valid touch, the LEDs would light, or even chase (Imagine those beeper things they give you at resturaunts).

Of course, it would require a new bellguard design, and each fencer would have to carry 2 epees (one red and one green) depending on which side of the strip they fenced, but could it work and would it be useful into showing the unknowing public (i.e. TV audiences) who was "winning"?

I welcome your thoughts.


(disclaimer: by reading this thread you are accepting a non-disclosure agreement and agree not to run out and patent this thing and make boo-hoos of money. At least not without giving me a cut )

*edited for spelling

[KShan5[PrFC]]

Well you would only need one bell guard right? Because if your bellguard lights up, pretty much anyone can tell who got the touch. The ligth color coes not really matter. Secondly I like the boxes, that is just me personally. But would that make epee fencing completely wireless? Cusz you would not need to clip into anything.

[Millamber]

You would still need the electronics of the scoring box to lock out the other light and to ground out the bellguard. Its just a matter of wiring in the lights in parallel to the ones that are already on the scoring boxes..

[The0ne]

but it's Epee, so no-one cares!!!! >
I think the biggest thing would be matinence, it would be hard to keep everything working i think, and you'd see more equipment problems if the mesh ripped or something

[DHCJr]

One of the problems with all the ideas going around is the FIE. In there requirements to the manufacturers they had a few conditions in creating the wireless systems and why they are not using it in Foil and Epee and how it doesn't work to well with Sabre.

1) No use of RF or Radio frequencies. How do you set up the timing in Epee of 1/25 sec. between the two opponents.
2) The fencer does not need any new equipment to fence. All those lights in the mask, the little boxes it all connects to etc. is all supplied by the organizers.

I've been told by Ted Li, it is a 30 to 45 minute process to set up each fencer for their bout.

[Mar98]

at our club we often fence epee with beepers directly attached to the guard (wireless). they have a red l.e.d. too - but it doesn't work fine .. everybody claims that his beeper has beeped too, you can't see the l.e.d that well (and for the ref it's even worse). also, you can't control the time for double touches.

the scoring machine works much better, but we have just one ..

mar98

[P00Man]

To make fencing a good TV thing, they need anouncers to anounce it like chess anouncers do chess. They explain it so completely only a very rudamentary knowledge is necessary.

That aside...
if they used various camera angles allowing sort of matrix-like veiwing (ie, stop-frame of one position from various veiwpoints) ppl could enjoy it and would watch it simply for the coolness of it. Thats how ice hockey got popular, not for the sport, but for the fights, kinda the same.

[KShan5[PrFC]]

Originally posted by DHCJr


I've been told by Ted Li, it is a 30 to 45 minute process to set up each fencer for their bout.

Yeah, it actually takes longer, I used the ones at Nationals. You have an extra socket on the blade, a special glove that is used for grounding purspoes. Special boxes that are used to transmit to the box which have to sit in your back pocket and are very bulky. Plus they require a lot of time to charge up. All in all it is still a pain. I say stick with the present system.

[lochinvar]

The idea of bell guards lighting up is okay, but way more trouble than needed.

The light should go in the mask, via a clip-on arrangement. I'm seeing a short post with a strobing LED, attached to the back bar of the mask by a velcro or elastic band. Electrify it with a branch wire from the bodycord exiting out the neck of the jacket in the back and plugging into the base of the light.

Presto! Everyone can see who scored, including your opponent. (You can't see your own light, so it won't distract you.) And the light post can be detached from one mask and attached to the next, meaning nobody needs to buy a new mask.

The only new piece of equipment required would be a bodycord with an additional short branch and plug for the mask light.

I'm still working on a way to do away with the box altogether, at least for epee...can't say about foil--too many factors, what with off-target lights and all.

[Inquartata]

If you cannot see your own light you will have to take the referee's word that it went off. I'd expect that not to be satisfactory, given that so many fencers look askance at referee decisions as it is.

Nothing shuts up an argumentative fencer as quickly as pointing to a box which shows only the fencer's light on....

[whtouche]

Kshan you should know from your experience with the system at nationals that that was absolutely not the system used in world cups for sabre. It was a very experimental system that had too many problems with it to even begin to discuss here.

God...that was annoying to watch..

[npkeith]

With the new electroluminecent plastics, why bother having lights at all? You could have the entire fencer light up.

The army is developing a "smart-shirt" technology that uses a grid of wires woven into the fabric to locate wounds, which can then be transmitted to the medic.

Why not use something like that - you could not only identify if touches were on or off target (for foil or saber), you could even then reverse the current and have a flashing 5 cm bullseye around the exact location of the touch -

we wouldn't need wireless scoring at all - the director just has to look at the blinky light and award the touch. Details like simultaneous touches could be worked out in the software.

What to you think?

[lochinvar]

npkeith, I like the idea.
How much would such a rig cost, I wonder? And how would a fencer hook up to it?

[npkeith]

Lochinvar - I have no idea if its even doable with current technology. I'm just an ideas guy .

I forsee having to build some kind of computer box/ battery unit (possibly built into a vest so there is no one lump to present a target).

It would require new (and probably mind-numbingly expensive) uniforms with both sensor and electroluminecent threads woven into it. Both would have to be tough enough to take multiple hits, and thin enough to not impair movement.

You would have to have some fancy way for ignoring bell hits ( like a digital finger-print signal being sent to the guard all the time as I mentioned in a previous posting on wireless fencing). There is also the issue of simultaneous touches to deal with. The only way I can think of to deal with that is to have the 2 computers talking to each other (probably by one of the encrypted wireless protocols, like 802.11g), and that leaves too much room for cheating. (Unless you did something like have 5 computers at the table and each fencer is assigned one at random 30 seconds before the bout begins, so there is no time to tinker with them and very little time for someone in the crowd to hack and break the encryption)

I think we could make current weapons work though, and electroluminecent plastic uses so little current, we could get away with small batteries (My son's little blue nightlight claims to use something like 10 cents worth of electricity a year )

Anything else I'm missing or forgetting?

Don't forget I thought of it first, so I want 50% of the profits. If you take a loss, yer on yer own.

[JAySE SUiCiDE]

Originally posted by P00Man
To make fencing a good TV thing, they need anouncers to anounce it like chess anouncers do chess. They explain it so completely only a very rudamentary knowledge is necessary.

That aside...
if they used various camera angles allowing sort of matrix-like veiwing (ie, stop-frame of one position from various veiwpoints) ppl could enjoy it and would watch it simply for the coolness of it. Thats how ice hockey got popular, not for the sport, but for the fights, kinda the same.

though who really wants ANYTHING to be like hockey..?

~Jes

[Inquartata]

I've been working on a little invention of my own. Yes, a version already exists, it's called "the wheel", but I really think I can improve on it....

[lochinvar]

Originally posted by npkeith
(snip) It would require new (and probably mind-numbingly expensive) uniforms... (snip)...Don't forget I thought of it first, so I want 50% of the profits. If you take a loss, yer on yer own.

If you think you're going to make any profit off of fencers by selling a "mind-numbingly" expensive uniform, then I'd like to talk to you about a bridge I have for sale...

Inquartata, you left your buggy-whip at the salle again...

[fencinman89]

i think lights in the mask would be kool

[kalivor]

Originally posted by npkeith
Lochinvar - I have no idea if its even doable with current technology. I'm just an ideas guy .

Well, apparently the technology is about 10 years away: http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0108/p14s01-stct.html

Of course, on the bright side, not only could the fencer who was hit light up and change colour, but they could buzz as well!

[Ramrod]

Originally posted by kalivor
Of course, on the bright side, not only could the fencer who was hit light up and change colour, but they could buzz as well! [/B]

Hey, I could use a good buzz!