Europe and Religion

[jeff]

(Carried over from " Saddam Hussein Captured" thread)

A while back there was a thread "Is the US a Theocracy". Now it seems time to ask the same of other countries, and see if they're doing a better job of reconciling religion with state.

Recently, France banned the wearing of "conspicuous" religious symbols in its public schools: Jewish skullcaps, "large crosses", and - the item starting it off - scarves worn by Muslim girls and women. This has sparked controversy in France and outside it.

See:
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/20/opinion/20SAT3.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/19/politics/19RELI.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/21/we...ew/21cald.html
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...52C1A9659C8B63

This has been set off by anti-Muslim sentiment within France (eg: Le Pen and his followers), and by anti-Semitic attacks by Muslims

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstrac...AB0994DB404482
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/21/we...ew/21cald.html

The first of the citations above expresses the opinion I hold: this is a mistake by the French government. Unlike in Christianity, the religious symbols worn by an observant Jew, Sikh, or Muslim are obligations, not optional, and the ban prevents them from observing their religions. This is the opposite from freedom of religion; it is the state telling people whether or not they can observe their religions, and will have the effect of driving people to polarized religious schools.

At the same time, other countries in Europe still have official religions. See:
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/21/we...ew/21cald.html
where there is Spanish law requiring Catholic education in the public schools. England still has the monarch as the defender of the faith. If I recall correctly, Italian schools have crucifixes in them. Some of the Scandinavian countries still are officially Lutheran, and the Lutheran church (and no other) is supported by taxes, and births and deaths are registered there, and so on.

Now there's hot debate in the European Union about what wording to include in the Constitution they're drafting. Some countries delegates want to explicitly refer to Christianity as significant to the EU and common to its members, others want to mention religion in general, others want the entire subject dropped.

So, is France right or wrong on this action? How is Europe going to handle an increasingly diverse population (birthrates are down, and immigration from the 3rd world - especially the Middle East - is up)? Is the EU going to override any policy set by its member countries?

[dreadfoily]

It's their country. If the only way they have of 'fighting back' is through separation of religion and state, then it's preventative medicine during wartime and a lot better than slogging guns.

[rukovsoft]

the separation of religion and education is deeply rootedin constituion. however a law was needed to clarify it. you cannot show what religion you belong too since it s a separation factor...you wear akipa you re a jew...evrybody is equal ina classroom regardlessof religion. you cannot bully anybody if you were a cross...this thing is 100 years old.


what you see on tv is emphasized by media. they wanna scare frenchmen...so that they don t feel like they re in france anymore. they want to keep them scared. same thing as fox news that always broadcast murders, terror alert, local suspects portraits, ways to be treated first in emergency rooms, toys that are dangerous for kids. same bull**** here in france. different means. they use the fear of the foreigner, especially arab ones. remeber 3 million muslims live in france and far right is 20% of the electorate.

this law is needed and i totally agree with it. that would be a realy dangerous to give a certain commmunity a privilege.let s say, let s allow catholics to wear big crosses...then why should nt we let muslims or jews wear their stuff? do u understand what i mean.

a republic, as opposed to democracy considers that all community are part of one. so everybody is given same rights, and duties regardless of religion, money, gender....the community as a whole (republic) rules over communities.


i said that those girls asking to wear a chador were mostly rebelling against parents or being influenced by radical preaches.
however i must say, that in the countries where those chadors are prohibited, girls don t wear them. if you prohibit them, then they strart spreading. i didn t say that, the iranian woman who won nobel prize, did.

sorry i don t know more about other countries. allican say is that this speration of religion and education is less strong in italy, portugal or spain because of the long history linked to vatican. think of ww2 or spanish war.ie: in spain, think about the role of the opus dei.

[Delmont]

I see this as ridiculous. Seperation of church and state only means that a state run institution, say a public school, can not force you to learn, or observe religous tenants. It does not mean that you can not observe your own religious practices of your own free will. Denying someone this right goes agaist our constitution (Yes, I am American), and I am suprised any one could support a law that tells people they can not observe thier religion.

[Inquartata]

I think this is of a piece with France's attempts to keep the language "pure". That is to say, the government thinks that it can stop social changes it doesn't like by decree. It is their business if they want to do so---unlike them, I would never presume to try to tell them what they should do in their own country---but I think it is doomed to failure.

[swordsen]

Seperating church and state is important. In so far as the church doesn't run the country and the country doesn't run the church. Denying peopel the free expression of their religious beliefs is a serious infringment of their liberty.

[rukovsoft]

Inq,

your remark is somewhat right. it has to do with some conservatism. language, republican idealare things french can be proud of, things we are admired for, so we want to keep them.

however, i think that academy francaise intents to keep french language pure is somehwta ridiculous. ie: last one is email replaced by couriel

courrier(mail)+email=courriel....hahahaha

insoccer they repmlace corner by coup de pied de coin....hahahaha


dont worry, nobody uses those words.

[Inquartata]

I suspected as much. Bunch of old wizened academics in an ivory tower somewhere making up rules no one obeys, right?

[damion18d]

Rukovsoft: In your opinion are French views about religion still tainted by all of the history of treachery by the church in France? I'm not downing religion or France just saying that a couple times in history there was some pretty sinister stuff when the church and the king were in cahoots.

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

Originally posted by jeff
[BSome of the Scandinavian countries still are officially Lutheran, and the Lutheran church (and no other) is supported by taxes, and births and deaths are registered there, and so on.
[/b]

In Sweden (I think it is similar in the other Scandinavian countries) the Lutheran church was until very recently state church since the 16th century, when the King found that version of Christianity useful for him. A few years ago, a mixture of political forces managed to finally split the church from the state, sort of.

The state Lutheran church still recieves taxes from the citizens whih happen to be members of it. Membership is conferred at birth if either parent is member, but can be revoked at any time, no questions asked. All citizens also pay a very small tax to the church to cover costs of burial. Births/deaths are registered by the church and by taxation authorities.

The rules were a lot stricter before, but were loosened up in the early 20th century. The reason why this has not been a point of contention is simple: those who cared about religion left for Minnesota 1880-1920. Left were a lot of mostly religiously uniterested (and some atheists) who accepted that the state did what the pleased with the church, as long as it did not bother the min the nonreligious life. The same phenomenon happened in many European countries, accounting for the large difference in the relation between religion and politics between USA and Europe.

In Sweden, there is a church encompassing approx 2/3rds of the population, the King (and the Heir appearent) is by law a protestant, and the yearly opening of the parliament is combined with a service. OTOH, the politicians never use God in speeches or propaganda, and those who happen to be religious generally do not advertise that fact. Some 10 years ago, the liberal party leader - when directly asked - stated that he was an atheist. Quick polls showed the conservative party bleeding to the liberals thereafter, and the conservative leader had to state that he was not that interesting in religion to stop the hemorrage. There is a small christian party in the parliament now, but they only got in - passed the 4% bar - after diluting their platform to some general "family values" thing.

There are interesting things so say about the non-christian religions also, but I will not go there right now.

All this is totally opposed to USA, where christianity is much more important, but not granted an official role.

Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[Albatros]

In Germany we seperate church and school as well. So it's not allowed to hang up a crucifix in schools. And I agree with that.

But sometimes people overshoot the mark. A Muslim teacher was asked to take off her headscarf at school. As a teacher she should not represent her religion. She went to the court and they agreed with her. And that's what I think too.

You can speak for yourself (wear a haedscarf) but you can't speak for a whole school. So the religious symbols in public places should kept outside.

(I'm sorry for my english, I'll try and improve it. )

[Inquartata]

The problem, though, is---what if your faith, a faith which long predates the secular state in which you reside, MANDATES the wearing of some article of clothing? That is, says it isn't something you are allowed to go without?

And of course, where does it stop? Chirac is also proposing laws permitting the items to be banned in the workplace. Can the state also decide it can regulate you in your home? Your place of worship? Will the ban be extended to all public buildings? Can owners of grocery stores and hotels and other businesses ban customers wearing certain items? And if so does it empower intolerance and bigotry, instead of limiting them?

[rukovsoft]

Hi guys,

as i told Damion i m far in center of france. just stopping by to checkemail. since i have a few minutes left, i checke dhte forum

i ll be backon sadam s later. however, Inq for once, you seem not to be well informed:

NEVER the coran IMPOSES to wear the chaddor. it s an interpretation.

i depend on your degree of practice/interpretation.

if you think being a good catholic in sgoing to chuch 4 times a week, not having sex until wedding, uhhh u see what i mean, then it s up to you.
does that make u an unbeliever or a bad catholic if you think that you don t to go to church....the real church being in your heart?

ie: taliban kill people who don t have big beard because they think it should be like that....do you sincerely think the prophet meant that...

ps: the catholic church did do nasty things. the most famous one: massacre of the st barthelemy where all protestants were killed
(huguenots)...shaddy things to during occupation and wwII. it s the same allover europe.

one last question several people asked me: Bush, speaks of god in every speech. the pope is against this intervention in iraq. (war in general though)...is there a debate there? should he be excommunicated, should he not bother...??? your views about that....

my time is expiring. be back in a week. have nice holidays andhappy new year.

[Tireur]

one last question several people asked me: Bush, speaks of god in every speech. the pope is against this intervention in iraq. (war in general though)...is there a debate there? should he be excommunicated, should he not bother...??? your views about that....

I believe Bush is a Methodist, don't think the pope has much sway there.......................................

[pkt]

I went to Catholic school for 8 years: had to study Catholicism and Biblical Knowledge and write exams on these topics. Even had to sit for my "O-level" exam for them. But luckily, we were emigrating to Canada so I could afford to flunk these two subjects on purpose.

As a result of my knowledge of European history and the on-going religious persecutions, I'm officially an agnostic, not an atheist.

That said, I appreciate having the knowledge of the Catholic faith. [As Chinese, I also know of Buddhism.] With this knowledge I could appreciate the European and British arts which are so very much intertwined with the Catholic faith. I know, I know I even know of the diff between the Church of England and Anglican Church when our resident Brit - a member of the CoE - doesn't even know the diff.

One good thing about Canada, as a result of the official policies of multiculturalism after PM Pierre Elliott Trudea since 1968 people of different faiths are allowed to practice whatever they wish. the federal government celebrates Christmas and no one objects, we all participate. If you choose not to, that's your choice. No one forces you to observe, or to participate. Christmas in Canada is becoming more cultural rather than religious.

Yes, racial discrimiation does exist in Canada. The fight the Sikh men's fight to wear their turbans in the armed forces, in the RCMP and as a helmet when they ride motorcycles are but one example.

I personally believe that the Sikh men should be allowed to wear their turbans as their uniform in the armed forces or the police forces: they fought for the Brits wearing their turban... That says to me they have erned their right to wear their turbans as part of their uniform. yes, They did win the fight in Canada...

If Chinese people tell them they are not bigoted, don't beleive them. Chinese people are no different from any body else. Once we acknowledge that we're all racist, then we can climb down from the high horse and work towards racial harmony and recognise the fact that we are basically the same. The religious zealots be damned.

The French are a strange people: They have to have institutions to maintain the purity of their language. They do it in France. They do it in Quebec. Are the French that insecure about their culture?

In Canada you can wear whatever you want as long as you do not infringe on the rights and freedom of another person. The old adage "You freedom ends at the tip of my nose." applies here.

That's my observation as a naturalised Canadian.

PK

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by rukovsoft

NEVER the coran IMPOSES to wear the chaddor. it s an interpretation.

i depend on your degree of practice/interpretation.

Well, EVERYTHING is a matter of interpretation....

But every source I've seen implies that the hijab or head covering ( not the chador ) is required of the devout. As here:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/humanrel...atishijab.html

http://www.islam101.com/women/hijabfaq.html


http://www.emory.edu/ENGLISH/Bahri/Veil.html


Other examples might include the Sikh turban, and various items of clothing in Judaism, depending on the...sect?...or degree of observance.

I wonder whether this prohibition of religious items in schools will go so far as to prevent, say, a Catholic or Greek Orthodox prelate or other clergymen from setting foot on school grounds, or if it will apply only to the students and faculty?

[Gav]

Personally, I think that France has made an interesting stand to protect it's ideal's of a truly secular state. It will be interesting to see how it pans out:

• Will they stop Catholics from wearing large crosses?
• Will they REALLY stop Jewish kids from wearing their skullcaps?
• Will the law only serve to pick on the Muslims?
• Is it really an attempt by the French to impose some control over the Muslim minority (as far as I am aware France has the biggest Muslim community in Western Europe) like they attempted to do with the Hugenots?

[rukovsoft]

well catholics cannot show BIG CROSSES or must keep their crosses inside their shirt....it s the same for everybody


the control theory is interesting, as a superior council of muslims has been created. the government appinted some puppets there to control...but now there s a lot of struggle.

anyway, i don t think we can compare that to huguenots. we live with 3 millions muslims, and most frenchman accept it. most of the muslim population is perfectly integrated too. both cultural differences are respected from each communities.

what you see on tv is just a minority, and media manipulation to make french people feel they re somewaht being "invaded", to make them feel insecure...

same bull**** as fox news that shows murders in communities , unsafe hospitals, nurse home....every 5 minutes.

[Black Jeebus]

Its not a matter of whether it is an interpretation or not. If these people believe their eternal happiness hinges on wearing those clothes them who are we to stop them. With seperation of church and state the state should only step in to stop religious practices when someone is endangered by them. By this token I can see you could say these kids are endangered by being Muslim and wearing their (I can't remember the names of them so I'm going to call it a) habits, but then you need to look at the crime. Don't punish the person exercising his religious freedom, punish the person who would threaten/harm the victim. What the French are proposing is more of their Socialist BS. Make everyone equal. Bah if everyone dresses the same and everyone looks just like everyone else where then is the flavor of humanity. Don't force your religion on someone else but don't force people to stop practicing theirs in some half-assed effort at equality.

[jeff]

Yesterday's New York Times had an article on how French Sikhs are protesting the proposed French law. They are required by their religion to wear a turban, and ooops, French authorities didn't take that into consideration either. Once a government gets into the business of defining whether or not individuals are allowed to practice their religions, it gets sticky real fast.