Change Is BAD!!!! (a rant)

[pkt]

Just enforce the current foil rules AS THEY ARE.

PK

[labouche]

Change sucks!! any form of it, in any aspect of life.
-la bouche

[The0ne]

Bonehead, you're completely right, flick attacks nower days are sooo unprepared and are total crap. I'll come out of sarcasm mode now. . . Have you ever fenced at national level? Because the directing there is for the most part very good. About the top 64 level in an NAC, it IS good. And if you're director is bad, deal with it. I had a director at the NAC who would not call preperation attack at all, which is over 50% of my game, so I just preperation attacked and made it one light. These changes are unnessecary.

If only the coaches, the fencers and, yes, the refs, will take the rules as they are. The reality of foil fencing is a vast deviant from the rules, cf. sabre and sabre rules: You pump your arm during an attack, then the attack becomes a preparation in however many fencing times the arm is pumped. In other words, the fencing time is called properly. The extension of the attack has to be clearly visible.

wrong, a coupe is a simple attack and it has a pull back of the arm. And if you pull your arm for a feint-flick and your opponent backs up, and you chase him for a while then finish with advance lunge, while your opponent counters after the start of the final attack (advance-lunge) it's attack for the chaser. Foil ROW is NOT Sabre ROW.

There must be an up and coming group of fencer's who have no doubt trained long and hard to master this tool, and use it to great advantage. To them, I'd imagine this change looks like a bunch of old fogies trying to dictate a change back to "the good old days".

That would be me.

[DanInMI]

Originally posted by The0ne


wrong, a coupe is a simple attack and it has a pull back of the arm. And if you pull your arm for a feint-flick and your opponent backs up, and you chase him for a while then finish with advance lunge, while your opponent counters after the start of the final attack (advance-lunge) it's attack for the chaser. Foil ROW is NOT Sabre ROW.

ummm
A properly executed coupe does not involve a "pull back of the arm."

[jeff]

Like DanInMI said: a properly executed coupe doesn't involve pulling the arm back, let alone pumping it. So, he's right, and pkt is right too - if the rules are applied as written and as they were applied until the last 10 years there would be nothing to complain about. A single-motion coupe was called the attack, pumping the arm or advancing without it being extended was called preparation.

And, in The0ne's scenario (stop thrust "after the start of the final attack") then he's right as well. By that time it's too late. If you can get your opponent to fish for your blade while you hold it back, and he counter attacks into your finale when you are extending, then more power to you. If the finale is done with a flick, well that's fine too.

As sabreur reminds us, there was a fad in mid-1970's foil with a sweeping prime. After a while everybody got over the surprise value of the prime and learned how to punish people who over used it (offer a big feint and then deceive to the flank). The difference is that basic interpretation of ROW wasn't changed to accomodate it, as has happened recently with what we used to call bent-arm preparations.

[laughingduelist]

As an epeeist, the changes to the foil system do not affect me in the slightest. However:
1) I agree with the changes, as I feel that the flick is simply getting an edge using the electrical system. I feel that this is a betrayal of what fencing is about.
2) Whining about the changes is not only pointless and immature, but extremely annoying. If those who are against the changes really care as much as they claim to, they should organize themselves and petition to the USFA or the FIE as a group.
3) I can understand the uproar the changes to the foil system have caused. In my experience, foilists consider themselves the "thinking fencers" and anything that upsets their game is to be fought.

and finally, at the risk of being stoned to death, I will say: Fence Epee!!

[retardedspleen]

its been my experience, its easy to adapt to things being added. (break at 8 points in sabre is the first thing that comes to mind)

whats hard to deal with, is when things are taken out of the sport, taking the flick out of foil is hard because its a big part of it (i think) a lot of people use it. I think it would be hard for me to come back to sabre, and fence somebody with those new masks...i just lost a move i use often...and have to be more percise of where i hit on the mask.

Its easier when they add things to the sport (usualy) I've fenced enough dry(non electric) tournaments to know how much it sucks... its easy to adapt to the 1 minute break for fencing. its easy to adapt to the change of rules with Point in line.


But this will continue to happen with fencing forever. Never will it stop chaning. Things will continue to be removed, and or added as seen fit. As people think the sport needs to be changed, it will.


In sabre the hand used to be target. Now its not. Although it was a small change, often times i would go for a stopcut, and miss, and think to myself "had it been 1 year ago, i would have gotten that touche"

Its harsh, but its true that if you want to fence, and compete, you will have to just deal with it. This is ok.

I suppose if you have a big enough disagreement with a rule change you can always start a petition. bring it to all the NACs and have people sign it. Id bet if you did you'd have a lot of signatures...


I think its ok to whine a little. Sympathy is due. It sucks when you lose a part of your game. The only Immature thing would be if you continualy whine about it without taking action to fix it.



Chris Triplett

[pkt]

The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist sees the good things about the wind.
The realist changes the tack of his sails with the changing wind.

Them's the rules, deal with it or go fly fishing.

PK

[The0ne]

fly fishing is pretty close to flicking according to the FIE so I'll opt for that! A coupe is where you pull your point over the top of the opponents blade, and at all levels it is usually performed with the entire arm. Simple attack, watch some directing and you'll see what I mean.

[edew]

Originally posted by rvergara
[...]

The only top level fencing i've seen is a tape from the Sydney Olympics, two bouts: Bissdorf-Ferrari and Tchevchenko-Ferrari. On those bouts the only parry i've seen is prime. All the attacks are contretemps or flicks. Both leftys do a running attack with the arm bent that somehow succeeds. Timing is essential for lots of the touches, but there are no beats, just preparing the flick. There is one touch made by Bissdorf that is more like a saber cut made with the point, barely scratching the lame.

I think those are the things the FIE is after, but that's just what i think.

You must be either watching a different set of 2000 Olympics tapes or you're just plain blind. In the gold medal match between Bissdorf and Kim, probably only 4 of the 29 touches were done with flicks.

Most of the parries were simple parry-fours. By both. Most of the hits were by thrusts and not by flicks. A lot of the hits were with a simple beat. Indeed, one of the more elegant one that Bissdorf did was a simple beat hesitation, then straight thrust, catching Kim in an indecisive position.

Kim's last touch as a simple disengage against an attempted parry by Bissdorf. Most of Bissdorf's hits were parry four, riposte with a pull of the arm back (to get the point in front of the body).

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by laughingduelist
Whining about the changes is not only pointless and immature, but extremely annoying. If those who are against the changes really care as much as they claim to, they should organize themselves and petition to the USFA or the FIE as a group.

Heh, isn't that a little like saying that "If the Jews were really serious they'd have risen up and opposed Hitler"?

I doubt that the FIE gives two figs about what fencers want or think. The USFA, maybe one fig....

[laughingduelist]

Heh, isn't that a little like saying that "If the Jews were really serious they'd have risen up and opposed Hitler"?

When the FIE starts slaughtering foilists en-masse, then use that argument. However, organized petitions/resistance do work. Think Ghandi, Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King jr., etc.
Also, the Jews did resist Hitler. The Warsaw Ghetto uprising lasted for several months, until every Jew there had been killed.

[FoilyGeezer]

Originally posted by laughingduelist
When the FIE starts slaughtering foilists en-masse, then ...

Ahhhh, my friend. They would not find that such an easy thing to do!!!!!

[The0ne]

Ghandi, MLK, etc were all great leaders. Are you a great leader to free us from FIE oppression?

[laughingduelist]

Ghandi, MLK, etc were all great leaders. Are you a great leader to free us from FIE oppression?

As much fun as it would be, I am an epeeist. The FIE know better than to mess with our rules. Sorry, my heart just wouldn't be in it. You'll have to find your own foil messiah.

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by laughingduelist


When the FIE starts slaughtering foilists en-masse,

Sigh...one can dream...

then use that argument.

*ponders...reflects...muses*

No, upon due consideration I'm still going to use it now. Sorry 'bout that!

However, organized petitions/resistance do work. Think Ghandi, Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King jr., etc.

None of them had to deal with the FIE....

Also, the Jews did resist Hitler. The Warsaw Ghetto uprising lasted for several months, until every Jew there had been killed.

And I imagine that resistance to the whims of the FIE powers that be would prove just about as effectual.

[rvergara]

Originally posted by edew
You must be either watching a different set of 2000 Olympics tapes or you're just plain blind. In the gold medal match between Bissdorf and Kim, probably only 4 of the 29 touches were done with flicks.

like i said, i saw 2 bouts: Bissdorf vs Ferrari and Ferrari vs Tchevchenko

[BEN_LOU]

Flick is one of the skills of fencing,actually it is not so easy to master the skill for the beginer. It was based on well controlling to the point and good feeling to the distance that make me like the game.But we can not use it all the time for everything has it own shortage,you will be hit when the distance was broken by the opponent.So my opinion is that a good fencer shoud try his best to master all the skill about fencing and can use the different skill in different time for the different opponent in competition.

My pleasure to know you all ! Merry Christmas!

[pkt]

Ben,

You might very well be the first person from China to join this forum. Welcome.

==)--------------

To all the flicker,
Change is coming, like it or not.
Change the tack of your sail or you'll capsize, then where would you be?

PK