foil changes

[gojujay]

"But most fencers aren't practising how to put a sharp point through somebody else. That idea died out of most sport fencers a long time ago."


Much to my sorrow

[pkt]

Originally posted by gojujay
"But most fencers aren't practising how to put a sharp point through somebody else. That idea died out of most sport fencers a long time ago."


Much to my sorrow

Ditto.

PK

[labouche]

Originally posted by achilleus
You may be practising how to point a point through your opponent, but most fencers aren't. Most are trying to hit their opponent without being hit. It always has been so.

The definition of what a hit is has changed over time.

In foil, it was originally what the judges and ref saw. Then it was changed to 500g of pressure required to set off the box. Now, it may change again. But most fencers aren't practising how to put a sharp point through somebody else. That idea died out of most sport fencers a long time ago.

Thank you for summing it up for me. I personally can't believe there are fencers who actually want to put their point through the opponent.
-la bouche

[achilleus]

Originally posted by gojujay
"But most fencers aren't practising how to put a sharp point through somebody else. That idea died out of most sport fencers a long time ago."


Much to my sorrow

You ever read Aldo Nadi's biography? If you can stomach the bad writing and egomania it has some interesting observations about dueling vs. sport fencing. Nadi observes how the 2 are diametrically opposed.

Even when sport fencing was officated dry, it bore little relation to duels with a sharp weapon.

If you wish to train this way there are a number of organizations that use period techniques and rules as opposed to the FIE, USFA, et al.

You should do a search on this site for some of the links.

[swordsen]

If yo had a good point on a weapon I rather suspect that 500 grams would be quite sufficient to ventilate someone. Not run them through, but open them up, get the blood flowing, distract and weaken the opponent, and get the seconds to ask if honor had been satisfied and call for an end to the mess. Dueling (at least in mythology) wasn't about killing.

[gojujay]

Originally posted by achilleus
You ever read Aldo Nadi's biography? If you can stomach the bad writing and egomania it has some interesting observations about dueling vs. sport fencing. Nadi observes how the 2 are diametrically opposed.

Even when sport fencing was officated dry, it bore little relation to duels with a sharp weapon.

If you wish to train this way there are a number of organizations that use period techniques and rules as opposed to the FIE, USFA, et al.

You should do a search on this site for some of the links.

I have read the passage where he described the duel he fought. I would agree that sport fencing has only rudimentary similarities to live swordplay, however there seems to be a dearth of people willing to put in the time and/or effort to learning swordsmanship.

I'm not sure but I think it may be similar to the disparities between modern kendo and traditional kenjitsu. That being said, I still enjoy sport fencing, I just have to remind myself of what it really is... a lot of fun, but just a game

The problem with some of the groups is WAY to few meetings and WAY to far apart. Big metro areas have them but I hate people. I don't have a problem with a person or persons, but people can go hang

[Tireur]

a lot of fun, but just a game

Hate to disappoint you, but, it's all just a game.

[gojujay]

Originally posted by labouche
Thank you for summing it up for me. I personally can't believe there are fencers who actually want to put their point through the opponent.
-la bouche

It's not that I have any homicidal tendencies, I just think that fencing has evolved way away from its roots. Sort of like the difference between teosinte and modern corn. (if you don't know the reference, read more GOOD books)

[gojujay]

Originally posted by Tireur
Hate to disappoint you, but, it's all just a game.

I guess the differnce is the stakes

[The0ne]

It's a sport, like playing basketball, it's not swordfighting.

[Tireur]

I guess the differnce is the stakes

Even your so-called "classical martial-arts" fencing is just a game.

[achilleus]

Originally posted by gojujay
I have read the passage where he described the duel he fought. I would agree that sport fencing has only rudimentary similarities to live swordplay, however there seems to be a dearth of people willing to put in the time and/or effort to learning swordsmanship.

I'm not sure but I think it may be similar to the disparities between modern kendo and traditional kenjitsu. That being said, I still enjoy sport fencing, I just have to remind myself of what it really is... a lot of fun, but just a game

The problem with some of the groups is WAY to few meetings and WAY to far apart. Big metro areas have them but I hate people. I don't have a problem with a person or persons, but people can go hang

It's great that you recognize the difference between the two concepts. I don't know the problems with the other groups since I am not interested in them. I don't think there is anything wrong with practicing fencing as a martial art. It is however important to recognize that this conversation is about sport fencing where running someone through is not, and never has been, the goal.

[labouche]

Originally posted by gojujay
It's not that I have any homicidal tendencies, I just think that fencing has evolved way away from its roots. Sort of like the difference between teosinte and modern corn. (if you don't know the reference, read more GOOD books)

Even back when foil fencing started it was intended as a sport. That's why there is RoW. If you want more realistic "sword fighting" fence epee.
-la bouche

[pkt]

Originally posted by labouche
Even back when foil fencing started it was intended as a sport. That's why there is RoW. If you want more realistic "sword fighting" fence epee.
-la bouche

E.D. Morton, A~Z of Fencing,
Foil: The practice weapon for the small-sword, eveolved in the late 17th century, when cutting became an obsolete action, ...

Small-Sword. The short, light, elegant and beautifully proportioned weapon which superseded the transition rapier at the turn of the 17th and 18th cneturies. ..."

Epee. The duelling sword evolved during the 19th century when the small-sword had ceased to be worn. ...

A bit of history of how foil is related to epee...In other words, our roots.

PK

[Darkside]

The only change that needs to come in foil is getting rid of the off target light - why should you be rewarded for a failed attack? You may be vulnerable after your miss hit for a riposte but due to the off target light fencing time stops and again we all grab our heads for 90th off target light of the bout - Anyone been to an "E" and under foli tournament lately? I would rather bash my head against a wall for 5 hours - thanks

[Tireur]

You may be vulnerable after your miss hit for a riposte but due to the off target light fencing time stops

But, if there is a riposte, then you were parried and your light is a remise. Touch for the other guy.

[gojujay]

Originally posted by Tireur
Even your so-called "classical martial-arts" fencing is just a game.

I beg to differ. IF classical martial arts LOOKS like a game then shame on the teacher for ALLOWING his/her students to be practice like that. There are many who practice martial arts for their defensive value and not necessarily their sport value. Sport is ALWAYS more popular than reality. Reality hurts.

[gojujay]

Originally posted by achilleus
It is however important to recognize that this conversation is about sport fencing where running someone through is not, and never has been, the goal.

The changes to foil rules were proposed to make it more realistic weren't they? If not, then why?

[FoilyGeezer]

Originally posted by Darkside
The only change that needs to come in foil is getting rid of the off target light - why should you be rewarded for a failed attack? You may be vulnerable after your miss hit for a riposte but due to the off target light fencing time stops and again we all grab our heads for 90th off target light of the bout - Anyone been to an "E" and under foli tournament lately? I would rather bash my head against a wall for 5 hours - thanks

I knew you were an Epee fencer before I even looked at your profile

Yes, watching people who haven't yet reached your level of mastery can be err...difficult, sometimes. I've been irked lately by watching potentially good fencers making tactical choices that, while they work at the level they're at, won't work later when they're fencing better opponents. It's so much wasted time in reality, but it's also part of the learning process. What you're doing above is blaming the machine for a lack of skill on the part of the fencer.....convienent, perhaps, but not good.

[Tireur]

There are many who practice martial arts for their defensive value and not necessarily their sport value

Sorry, I'm unaware of people carrying "swords" around for defensive purposes. And all "classical martial-arts" fencing competitions I've heard of were for "sport".