foil changes

[Tireur]

Hey i flick with or without the blade ...

I'm sure that's more information than anyone needed.

[DanInMI]

Originally posted by neevel
No, it is plenty of time. If you take an Eigertek and adjust the trim pot on the board to shorten the lockout time, you'll find that your ability to "time out" a marching, absence-of-blade attack is not as dramatically enhanced as you might think. This is particularly true if you're thinking that you'll be able to do a simple jut-and-lunge action whenever your opponent's point comes off line. Just as is currently the case, stop-hits into marching attacks will need to be properly set up to pull off.

-Dave

Well, we'll see. I admit that this is purely speculation on my part. But 3 tenths of a second seems to be a pretty short length of time to react to a stop hit and arrive on target. While it may not eliminate all bent arm attacks, it will certainly eliminate the slow ones.

[Rolls]

I've seen and performed stop-hits into a marching attack on the current lock-out time. So, I definitely think it will be possible under the new rules. But what it really comes down to is who is executing the better action. I think that's what these new rules are meant to do, get rid of bad actions or at least not reward them with a point. So, if you do the action correctly, there's an even better chance that there's only one light.

Rolls.

[The0ne]

oh I have too, the only problem with the lockout time is that a quick remise has the CHANCE to make a properly executed parry-repost not go off. In fencing now, and with new rules, the better set up action will be successful.

[pkt]

Originally posted by achilleus
Considering that the weapons are different in both use and weight and performance, the fact that the target areas are different, and the fact that ROW rules differ (carrying the blade in Ssabre) I think the weapons differ by far more than just the reffing.

The main reason for sabre being interpreted differently than foil is due the advanced target areas (changes the timing) and the rule about carrying the blade not constituting an attack.

It's not just the whim of of a random ref.

achilleus,

1. Max. weight for both sabre and foil is 500 grammes.

2. The RoW i.e.the definition of an attack for both sabre and foil are basically the same. The only exception is the footfall rule in sabre. The rest of the def. of an attack are basically the same:
a. initial extending/straightening of the [sword] arm
b. with the point [in both foil and sabre] or the blade [at an angle greater than 45-degree from the vertical in sabre]
c. continuously [in t7 and repeated in t75 but not t56] threatening the target
d. precedes the initiation of the lunge or the fleche [in foil].
cf. t7, t8, t56ss, t75ss.

My contention is this:
Before the flick became fashionable, foil and sabre were directed pretty much the same with basically the difference in when the attack ended. Everything else were pretty much the same as far as the RoW is concerned.

Somewhere along the way. soneone discovered the flick and from that point on the demand by the fencers/coached caused the seperation of the ways of the refs.

There is a similarity in the NHL rules: the NHL wanted to speed up the game and wanted to ban the 'grab and clutch' by the defensive and lower-skilled teams to slow down the attacking speedsters of the better teams which made the game dealy boring to watch. For some time the refs enforced that. But now they've again relaxed the enforcement of the "holding" calls.

Perhaps someone from my vintage [started competing in 1970] - Eric, are you there? - can jump in here to give us his/her 3rd opinion.

PK

[pkt]

Originally posted by wflaschka
...

You won't be flicking less because it's harder to flick; you'll be flicking less because you'll want to flick less.

... start developing tip-based deceptions: derobements, evasions, disengages. Those will be coming back strong, and few people can do them reliably nowadays. ...

Sounds like the formula for the come-back of the geesers...oh, I mean veterans - hey, I'm one of the veterans, I can call myself whatever names I want... - who couldn't flick even if their tired, arthrithic wrists would allow them... But they sure know the game about tip controls.

re derobements:
In one local tourney, in foil, exactly one year ago, I was so surprised that one of the better refs locally - with a Cdn N foil-only rating no less - failed to see my derobements, not once, but multiple times. Any reasonable sabre ref - even our juniors, non-ranked refs could see the "fencer A looked for the blade, failed to find it; RoW passes over to Fencer B; simultaneous hits, point for B."

PK

[pkt]

Originally posted by FoilyGeezer
I think it will change the mechanics of the flick slightly, though. Since the point will actually have to stay on the target longer. I think you'll be landing your flick with elbow bent slightly and then continuing the extension to keep the point depressed. Kind of like landing the hit and then following it in. I think it'll make doing the real buggy whip kind of flicks harder to get a light with.

Methinks that won't work for the simple reason that
after the point landed by a flick and
if you extend to keep the point sticking
the resulting extension will push the point off the target...

Try it.

This will be especially true if the flick landed on the shoulder or the back...

Think of the point being sharp...

The intent of a point weapon is to penetrate your opponent's skin for the hit to count - i.e. to wound or kill. On the other hand a flick will cause only a skin-deep wound, it will not penetrate. Hence the name "flick' is appropriate.

Talk about going back to one's roots.

PK

[pkt]

Originally posted by The0ne
...I'll figure out how to keep my game working, I'll make variations, but it'll still be the game i've been using, flicks and all. Have you changed a box to the new standards or are you speculating much like I am DanInMI? You speak like you have experienced these changes already.

...while you're figuring out how to beat the FIE, you'll slide down the ratings ...

I'll repeat myself with a variation:
The pessimist sees only the bad things about the wind;
the optimist sees only the good things about the wind;
the realist will change the tack of his sails to stay ahead of the wind;
the rebel will scream, holler and heap abuse at the wind;
the smarty-pants thinks he can beat the wind without changing the tack of his sails.


PK

[pkt]

Originally posted by The0ne
oh I have too, the only problem with the lockout time is that a quick remise has the CHANCE to make a properly executed parry-repost not go off. In fencing now, and with new rules, the better set up action will be successful.

This is already the case in sabre. An immediate remise will beat a compound or slow, long riposte to turn on the light and lock out the riposte.

PK

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by Namir
....they are intended undo the damage that was done when electric scoring machines made "flicking" a viable attack.

Well, flicking IS a viable attack. it meets ALL of the requirements (arm extending, point threatening target). if you don't believe that the point is threatening target while not pointing at it, then just ask Bill Oliver about the demonstration Jane Hall gave him.

Since it is a valid attack, I would oppose these changes if I thought they would eliminate the flick. They won't. they will simply make it necessary to do a CLEAN flick, as opposed to simply slapping the point down on somebody's back. This will eliminate the harsh, terrible, ugly flicks, but have minimal effect on GOOD flickers. thus, I wholeheartedly support the changes.

-m

[The0ne]

PKT, I think the new additions to your saying are aimed at me. . . If flicks will be impossible, I'll quit, but if there is a new technique to learn I will learn it. In Sabre it is easier to repost quickly, but in foil, if your parry takes the point out of line, or if you do a disengage repost, you have to maneouver the tip around, adding time to your repost. In most Sabre fencing I've seen the reposts are very, very fast!

[1936]

Theone, try a quick and powerful beat 4 parry riposte to the chest of to the shoulder against a lefty. if your opponent has fully executed their attack and you distance and timing are correct then it should b impossible to counter- just as fast as in sabre. for parry riposts to the shoulder dont rely on the blade bending so much- use your fingers to angle the point. it should be easier when your opponent is lunging cause they usually drop their shoulders or at least they are lower than usual.But if you wanna attack to the shoulder or back to get the point on you'll probably have to lift your guard much higher then before, then drop the point down. I believe the same kind of hits will be possible but they will require a more flexible wrist and less bending of the blade. better control of the point will help.

[The0ne]

Ah, but what if your opponent gets wind of this plan and sets up counter-repost. Next time let's say that you do a feint to the shoulder, finish in prime, one action, and you opponent counters into it, and gets one light? That would suck!! I don't know if the timing is THAT short, having not tried out with the new lockout time yet, but that is the scenario I dread. . .

[1936]

Ah, but what if your opponent gets wind of this plan and sets up counter-repost. Next time let's say that you do a feint to the shoulder, finish in prime, one action, and you opponent counters into it, and gets one light? That would suck!! I don't know if the timing is THAT short, having not tried out with the new lockout time yet, but that is the scenario I dread. . .

If your opponent gets wind of it and sets up a counter plan then that is just the game of fencing- disguise your preparations or make them think you r doing something else- mix it up! There is no magical technique with no counter. if u know your opponant is going to flick and can predict the timing then it is easy to make them miss. if you can make your opponant really commit to annattack then a parry riposte is easy. if they are trying to set up a counter risoste then read their intentions- their attack will be weaker so do something else- like an attack in preparation. use counter time to really make them commit give them no choice (with your footwork) and you'll get them with a parry riposte every time. If you r attacking to the shoulder and your opponent counters into it and gets one light- then finish quicker or use counter time to draw the counter then take the blade and hit them on the shoulder

[pkt]

TheOne,

For every move there's always a counter move.
If you give up fencing because one of your tools is outlawed then you're not a very dedicated fencer. cf fleche in sabre.

Epeemike,
Do yo have a video clip of the demo? I'd like to see how a foil point pointing at the ceiling can be threatening the target.

PK

[The0ne]

PKT,
I ws speaking about the lockout time in a specific HYPOTHETICAL scenario which would rob good ROW and give the touch to a quick remiser. Believe me i have been fencing long enough to know about the existence of counter-moves. . .

1936,
you didn't really address the specific scenario I out lined, you just told me how to fence a good bout . I do fence that way (ok fine my preperations aren't very well disguised. . . yet!) but setting up is the thing I do best (which isn't saying that much ) but what if the scenario I outlined actually happened? How pissed would you be if your repost didn't get a light because the other person did a quick remise, it happens. . .

[Stryder]

*New technical details for foil fencing:
Shorter time for "blocking-time": now 300 milliseconds (former: 550)
Longer impact-time: now 15 milliseconds (2)
More impact-power: now 750 gram (500)
Use of a new point of the weapon
**New technical details for sabre fencing:
Shorter time for double hits: now 120 milliseconds (350).

http://www.fie.ch/Communication/Press.aspx

[pkt]

Stryder,
Merci bien.
PK

[1936]

Originally posted by The0ne
PKT,
I ws speaking about the lockout time in a specific HYPOTHETICAL scenario which would rob good ROW and give the touch to a quick remiser. Believe me i have been fencing long enough to know about the existence of counter-moves. . .

1936,
you didn't really address the specific scenario I out lined, you just told me how to fence a good bout . I do fence that way (ok fine my preperations aren't very well disguised. . . yet!) but setting up is the thing I do best (which isn't saying that much ) but what if the scenario I outlined actually happened? How pissed would you be if your repost didn't get a light because the other person did a quick remise, it happens. . .

Well don't just do sloppy ripostes.And I was addressing the issue. If someone really commits to an attack and you parry, it would be very hard for them to do a quick remise- just dont take as long with your reposte- a minor adjustment.And if they are setting up this remise or counter- parry then, like i said earlier, read their intentions and do something else. Basically these changes, i believe and i could be wrong (although experience in all other matters negates this
doubt, will force you to make your fencing to be tighter in all respects.

Just as in the 1980's when flicking really started to shape the game- some stubborn, conservative fences just moaned and complained, while others(the successful ones) embraced the change and adjusted their games accordingly. 'Flicking' has now become a conservative move. It wont die but changes are on the horizon.

A whinney conservative fencer or a proggressive successful fencer? which ONE do you want to be THEONE?

[The0ne]

Winning is the road for me, and I fully intend to change my game as needed! Yeah, fast reposts will be key, but my point was that it WOULD suck if that scenario happened, not that I intend to ever have it happen to me!!! Yeah, fencing is going to be tighter, which kinda sucks for me, because I was having fun picking up on other peoples sloppiness (and getting away with my own!!! )