foil changes

[pkt]

Originally posted by 1936
Hey i flick with or without the blade ...

Praytell I'd love to learn how to flick without the blade...

PK

[pkt]

Originally posted by darius
... But the flick, delivered in the proper context, is a beautiful finishing action. It would be a travesty to see it go.

darius

darius,

Was there a typo in that first sentence?
Don't you mean "a beautiful FISHING action"?

PK

[pkt]

Since the foil rules haven't changed, as I've insisted from the beginning, it has always been the refs. cf sabre refing. The rules are basically the same in foil and sabre, the refing makes the two weapon's two totally different animals vis a vis the attack.

PK

[achilleus]

Originally posted by pkt
The rules are basically the same in foil and sabre, the refing makes the two weapon's two totally different animals vis a vis the attack.

PK

Considering that the weapons are different in both use and weight and performance, the fact that the target areas are different, and the fact that ROW rules differ (carrying the blade in Ssabre) I think the weapons differ by far more than just the reffing.

The main reason for sabre being interpreted differently than foil is due the advanced target areas (changes the timing) and the rule about carrying the blade not constituting an attack.

It's not just the whim of of a random ref.

[labouche]

Originally posted by pkt
darius,

Was there a typo in that first sentence?
Don't you mean "a beautiful FISHING action"?

PK

Hey, Golubitski also thinks it is a beautiful move. SO THERE!
-la bouche

[The0ne]

What can anyone say to that?!?! The major thing impeding the flick is the 2mm travel, and the timing thing where your tip has to be on the target for longer (what's that called?). I'm totally over my "I hate the FIE" phase now, and I'm lifting weights so my flicks are stronger!

[JAySE SUiCiDE]

Originally posted by The0ne
What can anyone say to that?!?! The major thing impeding the flick is the 2mm travel, and the timing thing where your tip has to be on the target for longer (what's that called?). I'm totally over my "I hate the FIE" phase now, and I'm lifting weights so my flicks are stronger!

yeah.. time to start learning how to chest/sholder flick with my epee, even though that only has 1.5mm of travel..

this is still all in the developmental stage though, right? nothings changed yet?

~Jes

[The0ne]

Yeah nothings changed yet (thank god!!!), but it will, oh it will

[wflaschka]

lifting weights... practicing w/ epee flicks

While the rule changes are not anti-flick, you can't forget that they are pro-tip.

To flick, you need an arched blade. For a good flick, you need an elevated hand. These are two things that shorten your hitting distance with a flick. Then add the fact that, to flick, the hand is not in front of your body, protecting target.

Then add the block-timing changes. You get a recipe where a stop-hitting opponent makes you his b*tch.

You won't be flicking less because it's harder to flick; you'll be flicking less because you'll want to flick less.

Rather than bulking up with weights, start developing tip-based deceptions: derobements, evasions, disengages. Those will be coming back strong, and few people can do them reliably nowadays. The person with good tip-sense wil have a small window of opportunity to shoot up the ranks when the rules kick in.

[The0ne]

True, but keeping the flick as an aspect of your game will still be important I think.

[FoilyGeezer]

I think it will change the mechanics of the flick slightly, though. Since the point will actually have to stay on the target longer. I think you'll be landing your flick with elbow bent slightly and then continuing the extension to keep the point depressed. Kind of like landing the hit and then following it in. I think it'll make doing the real buggy whip kind of flicks harder to get a light with.

[DanInMI]

Originally posted by The0ne
True, but keeping the flick as an aspect of your game will still be important I think.

You don't seem to understand what increasing the debounce time does.....no matter how hard you flick, the longer debounce time means that those around the corner, over the shoulder, flicks are not going to score. As soon as the blade stops all the forward energy is expended and the recoil of the blade takes over.

It will not be an important part of the game.
Walter is correct, you will not be wanting to flick. The idea of these rules is to turn flicks into such a low percentage maneuvre that you will not risk attempting them, all too often the box will not register the hit and a counter attack will score against you.

[The0ne]

I'm reading that as the FIE sending me a challenge, I'll figure out how to keep my game working, I'll make variations, but it'll still be the game i've been using, flicks and all. Have you changed a box to the new standards or are you speculating much like I am DanInMI? You speak like you have experienced these changes already.

[wflaschka]

I want-want-want a box with the changed timing. When vendors start offering the upgrade, I'm going to try to use my meagre influence to get a box sent out ASAP.

Hopefully, whomever gets the new timing first will post the results to the board.

[DanInMI]

Originally posted by The0ne
I'm reading that as the FIE sending me a challenge, I'll figure out how to keep my game working, I'll make variations, but it'll still be the game i've been using, flicks and all. Have you changed a box to the new standards or are you speculating much like I am DanInMI? You speak like you have experienced these changes already.

No, I have not used the new box.

My statement about debounce time is based on physics. It is not speculation. When you execute a flick you are "loading" the spring action of the blade, storing energy. When the tip touches and stops forward movement, the "stored energy" is released. Meaning that the blade immediately recoils to it's original shape. It doesn't matter how hard you flick , the moment that the forward action is halted the blade will immediately begin to recoil. It does not pause just because you flicked harder.

I will admit that you might be able to get the tip to remain depressed longer if the surface that you are hitting is soft enogh to have some compressibility.

I think that Walter makes the point very well...you won't want to attempt to flick. These rules are designed to make the odds of landing a successfull flick low enough that it would be foolish to make it an important part of your game.

[DanInMI]

Originally posted by The0ne
What can anyone say to that?!?! The major thing impeding the flick is the 2mm travel, and the timing thing where your tip has to be on the target for longer (what's that called?). I'm totally over my "I hate the FIE" phase now, and I'm lifting weights so my flicks are stronger!

Actually, I think that the rule chgange that is going to most dramatically effect the game is the change of the blocking time from 700ms to 300ms.

Think about what this will do. Many "flickers" initially extend (taking ROW) then, while still marching forward bend thier elbow preparing to flick, while the defender is retreating. When the defender attempts to c attack into their preparation, the attacker executes the final action. Two lights.

Since the directors are reluctant to call this properly an attack into preparation, the FIE has come up with a way to make the machine make that call for them. Now, under the new rules, the attacker has less than 1/3rd of a second to land his final action after the stop hit has arrived. That is probably not enough time for most people.

[The0ne]

The debounce time will not have a large impact on marching attacks. Decent fencers are good enough with these attacks that the finish of the attack comes with the counter attack. Most fencers do not continue to pull their arm back starting a marching attack, the arm is initially withdrawn, but then is either feinting, or slowly extending. The debounce time just makes counter-attacks stronger.

[Rolls]

I think you're confusing debounce time with lock-out time or something.

Debounce time is the time that the tip must stay depressed.

You're right debounce time won't have much of an effect on marching attacks. It really has more effect on how you finish the attack and not how you begin it.

However, if you think the lock-out time won't have an effect on marching attack, I believe you will be wrong. I'm sure that some marching attacks will still be able to get a light, but many won't. That's the whole point. Right now, ALL (pretty much) marching attacks get a light.

Note: By marching attack, I mean an attack where you are chasing your opponent down the strip waiting for him to respond with an action to finish, knowing that his attack will be percieved as a counter attack. I'm not saying there is anything right or wrong about this, but I do thing the new rules will make this harder to pull off.

Rolls.

[The0ne]

yeah, lockout time, that's what I meant. If you look at high levels, they are not "waiting for their opponent to make an action to finsih" they are reading the opponents actions of course, but they finish in time, and correctly. The reason for doing marching attacks is attacking with and absence of blade, because fast sweeping parries are very, very hard to disengage. If you run through 3-4 different parries very quickly you will almost certainly pick up the blade, because noone can disengage that fast. By noone I mean everyone except Gobluitski. In the future you will see even more emphasis on defense with alot of time spent manouvering, both fencers hesitating to launch an attack because defenses will be so strong.

[neevel]

Originally posted by DanInMI
Actually, I think that the rule chgange that is going to most dramatically effect the game is the change of the blocking time from 700ms to 300ms.

Think about what this will do. Many "flickers" initially extend (taking ROW) then, while still marching forward bend thier elbow preparing to flick, while the defender is retreating. When the defender attempts to c attack into their preparation, the attacker executes the final action. Two lights.

Since the directors are reluctant to call this properly an attack into preparation, the FIE has come up with a way to make the machine make that call for them. Now, under the new rules, the attacker has less than 1/3rd of a second to land his final action after the stop hit has arrived. That is probably not enough time for most people.

No, it is plenty of time. If you take an Eigertek and adjust the trim pot on the board to shorten the lockout time, you'll find that your ability to "time out" a marching, absence-of-blade attack is not as dramatically enhanced as you might think. This is particularly true if you're thinking that you'll be able to do a simple jut-and-lunge action whenever your opponent's point comes off line. Just as is currently the case, stop-hits into marching attacks will need to be properly set up to pull off.

-Dave