foil changes

[Windsor]

There isn't actually a rule preventing the flick right? It just looked like some of them are meant to make flicking more difficult.

Does the USFA adopt these rules at the same time as FIE?

[wflaschka]

Originally posted by Windsor
There isn't actually a rule preventing the flick right? It just looked like some of them are meant to make flicking more difficult.

Does the USFA adopt these rules at the same time as FIE?

There's no rule preventing the flick. These rules aren't anti-flick (publicly, at least), but rather pro-tip. With these rules, it will be advisable for us to amuse our opponents with tight, foily, tip-based actions. The rule changes will mean the most at the lower levels; as for the upper, from what I've been seeing (just finished the 2003 Men's Foil Team Finals) there's already a nice strong tip game in place.

I think the rule changes are being adopted after October 2004 for junior and cadet events (for tweaking). Then on to the adults. I bet the USFA will ratify the changes (whatever their final form) in 2005.

[dreadfoily]

THanks again board, and PK for your insights. I must be an optimist. I just paid my fencing tuition, and start the first week in January, I'm pretty excited about it - my stuff is all ready for fencing. My only complaint is that I currently own more epees than foils. Oh well.

I'm doing better guys and the board has been great on the most part. Including the art stuff. I feel a little weird, that lots of stuff hasn't worked out but some has. So looking at the brighter side.

As far as the flick goes, it may be more difficult for the flick to register on the machine due to the changes. Which may cause foilists to change their tactics - in the long run - we need to improve our all around techniques. In looking at the video clip that Craig provided us a few days ago, I noticed that even thought the fencers were all considered to be excellent in terms of their reputations, the footwork of the fencer on the left wasn't so good on the retreat.

[BEN_LOU]

Originally posted by Prometheus
Please,

Don’t feed the troll.

Edit:

1936,

Since you account was made in October I will entertain the possibility that this post is not solely an attempt to start a flame war. If that is indeed the case I would recommend liberal use of the search function in the upper right corner of the page. The ethics of the flick have been discussed here ad nauseam. I would recommend reading and considering the views of some of the tenured and knowledgeable members of the board, or at the least using a slightly less inflammatory style.

This will be my only post on this topic.

[1936]

[THEONE]And 1936, I really hope to fence you in a National level bout some day so I can show you what real foil fencing is like.


Hey theone i like your signature picture, the homestarrunner site is awsome. However no amount of 'cheating' could stop me from kicking your a#se at any level.

[The0ne]

you don't know how good I am at cheating!!!

[1936]

So Isaiah there is at least 31 US cadets who can kick your a#%e. I think your bark might be just a little bit worse that your bite.

[The0ne]

I've beaten some of those guys ahead of me, but yeah that's basically right, I'm only like a top 32 cadet fencer. Ah well, good thing I have another year in that age-group! It's just if you think that my flicks without taking the blade are your attack, you would lose pretty quickly!

-Flickmaster Flash

[1936]

Hey i flick with or without the blade- whatever the ref pays. i was just suggesting my thoughts on what would make our sport more watchable. dont get me wrong i love the flick, its just when everybody does it as their primary means of attack then it becomes a bit mundane

[The0ne]

a hah, you're one of those people against flick abuse!! I actually don't mind opponents abusing it, because my style makes it very easy for me to shut down the flick! I love getting points from people who are "certain" that their flick attack will score and then I step in.. . I don't know if less flicking would make the sport more watchable, fencing, since it's based on subtlery (you don't want your opponent to see your moves) will never be really watchable. I don't think that less flicking will help. . . Although the flicks where you're standing right next to your opponent were my favorite moral-breaking move!!

[labouche]

Originally posted by The0ne
a hah, you're one of those people against flick abuse!! I actually don't mind opponents abusing it, because my style makes it very easy for me to shut down the flick! I love getting points from people who are "certain" that their flick attack will score and then I step in.. . I don't know if less flicking would make the sport more watchable, fencing, since it's based on subtlery (you don't want your opponent to see your moves) will never be really watchable. I don't think that less flicking will help. . . Although the flicks where you're standing right next to your opponent were my favorite moral-breaking move!!

The flick is beautiful move and usually spectators go "WOW!" when they see it.
-la bouche

[darius]

After much thinking and reading, I'm mixed on these changes. Allowing a shoulder turn and decreasing the lockout time seem fair enough; they'll force the attack or riposte to land a bit faster, making a strong counterattack or fast remise. That will discourage the arm-back attacks that finish an eon after the counter has landed.

Maybe the FIE has been basing their rule changes on Y14 or cadet competitions, where the haves slaughter the have-nots with marching attacks that end in a flick when the poor kid gets to the end of the strip and flails their arm out in desperation.

Yes, every year there seems to be somebody who storms up the senior international ranks by doing something crazy -- Wessels et al. But you know what? That lasts for a year, and during the offseason, coaches study those opponents and come up with ways to shut them down.

Honestly, that's one of the cool things about this game. If you can think outside the box while staying within the rules, you've got an advantage. However, at the end of the day, it's the person who has a finer mastery of footwork and tip control who wins at a high level over time, because those simple, basic, point-first actions are the most efficient. (Yes, even with CURRENT rules and equipment.)

You only have to look as far as the US senior MF points list to see that. Watch Dan Kellner fence -- he doesn't do anything that you wouldn't teach a 4 month beginner, with the exception of the occasional flick-riposte.

Personally, I like the academic exercise of knowing that any place on my lame is fair game. And punishing those who lean forward in the lunge, trying to hide their chest beneath their weapon arm and bib, by lighting up their shoulder.

Bend my blade 1 cm instead of 2? Fine. 750g on the tip? If I wanted to fence epee, I would have done so.

darius

[darius]

After much thinking and reading, I'm mixed on these changes. Allowing a shoulder turn and decreasing the lockout time seem fair enough; they'll force the attack or riposte to land a bit faster, making a strong counterattack or fast remise. That will discourage the arm-back attacks that finish an eon after the counter has landed.

Maybe the FIE has been basing their rule changes on Y14 or cadet competitions, where the haves slaughter the have-nots with marching attacks that end in a flick when the poor kid gets to the end of the strip and flails their arm out in desperation.

Yes, every year there seems to be somebody who storms up the senior international ranks by doing something crazy -- Wessels et al. But you know what? That lasts for a year, and during the offseason, coaches study those opponents and come up with ways to shut them down.

Honestly, that's one of the cool things about this game. If you can think outside the box while staying within the rules, you've got an advantage. However, at the end of the day, it's the person who has a finer mastery of footwork and tip control who wins at a high level over time, because those simple, basic, point-first actions are the most efficient. (Yes, even with CURRENT rules and equipment.)

You only have to look as far as the US senior MF points list to see that. Watch Dan Kellner fence -- he doesn't do anything that you wouldn't teach a 4 month beginner, with the exception of the occasional flick-riposte.

Personally, I like the academic exercise of knowing that any place on my lame is fair game. And punishing those who lean forward in the lunge, trying to hide their chest beneath their weapon arm and bib, by lighting up their shoulder.

Bend my blade 1 cm instead of 2? Fine. 750g on the tip? If I wanted to fence epee, I would have.

Seeing hand-waving marching attacks go away wouldn't make me cry too hard. But that's an officiating issue, not a problem with the equipment. But the flick, delivered in the proper context, is a beautiful finishing action. It would be a travesty to see it go.

darius

[FoilyGeezer]

Originally posted by darius
Bend my blade 1 cm instead of 2? Fine. 750g on the tip? If I wanted to fence epee, I would have done so.

Actually, you say a lot of good stuff here Darius. I remember fencing a team in highschool that every year would have a "team move" that each of their fencers would use as their primary attack. We usually sacrificed a sophomore or two at the beginning of the meet to find out what they were up to this year, stuck our heads together, figured it out, and then opened up a can of whup@ss on 'em.

The 750g tip? I recall being taught (because we fenced a lot of dry meets) to leave the tip on the opponent for as long as possible, blade bent. That way the judges and the director would be more likely to see your hit. Electric equipment removed the necessity for that. It doesn't matter if anyone actually physically observes the hit, as long as the actions and ROW are interpreted correctly. Flick to the back, one light, touch left. But as long as your actions are intensive and intentional, this won't change a thing to a well delivered point attack, and though I know I'm speaking out of my estimatorial rear end here, but it probably won't change most well delivered flicks either as long as you follow through on them.

[neevel]

I've already described numerous times before how my experimentations with an increased debounce time and shortened lockout time didn't make an enormous difference. The increase in spring weight and the 1 mm travel may not make all that much difference, either. First off, most hits in foil, thrust or flick, arrive with a force equivalent to the weight of thousands of grams-- an extra 250 on the spring isn't going to count for much in light of that. The 1 mm travel will be more significant. You can still flick with an epee, though, and you need to bear in mind that this point will be on a foil blade, not an epee blade. They're not talking about changing the flexibility of the foil blades (only the allowed "at rest" curvature), so you'll still be able whip the point in with greater ease than you can with an epee.

With the caution that I've not seen the combined effect of the debounce time, spring weight, and 1 mm lighting stroke together, I still think that the effect of these changes will be more limited than some people make them out to be. I'll get rid of the more extreme flicks, but most of the shots you currently see to targets like the top of the shoulder or the front torso will still be a reliable touch if your technique is right.

Darius is spot on in his observation about things really being a refereeing issue. In going with these material changes, Roch & co. are essentially taking the path of least political resistance, because they're not confident about having the clout to push through and enforce changes in refereeing interpretations or clarifications in the written rules. Internal politics in Olympic sports bodies can be almost as intractable as in academia .


-Dave

[DHCJr]

Dave, yours was probably a typo, but I believe it is 2mm travel.

[neevel]

Oops-- Right, 2 mm. Still, with the greater flexibility of the foil blade, I'd still expect to be able to get a light on a counter-6-flick-riposte to the shoulder.

-Dave

[3ngu4rd]

I disagree with the change in foil rules (I enjoy hearing that satisfying grunt from your opponent when you happen to pull of a super money fleche hit). I don't see why the fleche should be taken out of the foil attacks. It is a pretty good move to make when given the opening. Foil is becoming more and more like sabre. I mean, I enjoy both sabre and foil, but I like my fleche in foil. Leave it there! lol

[JAySE SUiCiDE]

Finally, if you take flicking out of foil it becomes epee with a smaller target area. If you don't like ficks, become an epeeist

there are still flicks with epee. in epee flicks are harder not because of the tip needing to hold up 750 instead of 500 grams..but only because the blade is so stiff. i see no reason why the weight change will make flicks harder.

~Jes

[pkt]

Originally posted by dreadfoily
THanks again board, and PK for your insights. I must be an optimist. I just paid my fencing tuition, and start the first week in January, I'm pretty excited about it - my stuff is all ready for fencing. My only complaint is that I currently own more epees than foils. Oh well.

...

Then you can use you epees as if they're foils...

PK