foil changes

[telkanuru]

You're awful! I'm flinching just reading that

[noodle]

as a high level national referee (and will sit FIE foil and epee exams as soon as i turn 20), if she's ducking her head down in the action you described, she's covering target, simple as that.

If the head is up, then its a completely legal action.

this is correct.
or you could card her for turning her back to the opponent . if her mask is down exposing the back of her head, its a safety issue. card.

[DanInMI]

I'm afraid I can't. If you I am aiming straight for your chest and you lower yourself so I hit your mask, that I would call displacing target. The argument that they are exposing their back is also a fallacy. There is the difference of a vertical plane, which can be hit straight with a parallel plane, which you will probably slide past.

Also have you exposed your back. If you keep your head up you have a nice big area in front. I would have to say I believe a card should be given.

What? Does ANYONE at fencing.net own a copy of the rules?

Displacing the target by ducking is IS LEGAL.

t.21 "Displacing the target and ducking are allowed even if during the action the unarmed hand comes into contact with the strip."

As you can see, what she is doing is SPECIFICALLY ALLOWED in the rules.

[dunastor]

I think the translation of those rules you have there are a little tricky

displacement, as in the whole person, are allowed, to the extent that you can have 3 contact-points with the strip (one of them being the non-weapon arm)

movements by which the valid target area becomes covered by nonvalid area are NOT allowed.

[darius]

Displacing the target by ducking is IS LEGAL.

t.21 "Displacing the target and ducking are allowed even if during the action the unarmed hand comes into contact with the strip."

As you can see, what she is doing is SPECIFICALLY ALLOWED in the rules.

Yes...and no. If you read the rulebook and insult others about its use, you probably should read all of it. Especially the next passage:

t.22 Substitution and Use of the Non-sword Hand and Arm

The use of the non-sword hand and arm to carry out an offensive or defensive action is forbidden (cf. t.114, t.116, and t.120). Should such an offence occur, the touch scored by the fencer at fault is annulled.

In foil and saber, it is forbidden to protect the target area or to substitute another part of the body for the target area, either by covering or by an abnormal movement

Ducking and displacing are allowed, but the current interpretation (ooh, hate that word!) seems to warrant a card if the fencer lowers his head to cover more of the chest target. Obviously, as Walter says, you can't overdo this.

I do believe that there needs to be a clarification to the rules: lefties who drop their elbow to make flank attacks land off target should be penalized.

darius

[DHCJr]

What? Does ANYONE at fencing.net own a copy of the rules?

Displacing the target by ducking is IS LEGAL.

t.21 "Displacing the target and ducking are allowed even if during the action the unarmed hand comes into contact with the strip."

As you can see, what she is doing is SPECIFICALLY ALLOWED in the rules.

You and Darius reminded me I should not think I know the T rules.

[DanInMI]

Yes...and no. If you read the rulebook and insult others about its use, you probably should read all of it. Especially the next passage:

t.22 Substitution and Use of the Non-sword Hand and Arm

The use of the non-sword hand and arm to carry out an offensive or defensive action is forbidden (cf. t.114, t.116, and t.120). Should such an offence occur, the touch scored by the fencer at fault is annulled.

In foil and saber, it is forbidden to protect the target area or to substitute another part of the body for the target area, either by covering or by an abnormal movement

Ducking and displacing are allowed, but the current interpretation (ooh, hate that word!) seems to warrant a card if the fencer lowers his head to cover more of the chest target. Obviously, as Walter says, you can't overdo this.

I do believe that there needs to be a clarification to the rules: lefties who drop their elbow to make flank attacks land off target should be penalized.

darius

As for the rest of the rule none of the rest of what you posted is applicable in the situation the Donald was commenting on. He said: "If you I am aiming straight for your chest and you lower <B>yourself </B>so I hit your mask..."

He did not say she "lowers his head to cover more of the chest target" so that "interpretation" does not apply.

(quite frankly,I have long thought that interpretaion was flawed ....."lowering your head to cover more of the chest target" sounds like ducking to me, and the rule specifically allows "Ducking.")

[darius]

As for the rest of the rule none of the rest of what you posted is applicable in the situation the Donald was commenting on.

Don has already made his mea culpa regarding the issue, so his post was a bit irrelevant. However, the actual issue (and where the cardable line lies) did involve lowering the head. My apologies for wasting precious bandwidth by quoting the entire rule.

original post by JAySE SUiCiDE which started this whole ducking issue:

there's a fencer here (i'll call her mary). mary fences, and whenever she goes in for a touch, usually a counter attack, she bends at her hips and ducks her head down, making it impossible to hit her chest.

(quite frankly,I have long thought that interpretaion was flawed ....."lowering your head to cover more of the chest target" sounds like ducking to me, and the rule specifically allows "Ducking.")

I'm completely ambivalent about it, despite finding ducking counterattacks a fine respite from the normal demands of Linear Electric Wire Tag...er...foil. It's very rarely penalized; I assume because the exposure of the back is such a nice inviting target that there's no reason to worry, as long as you have the composure to turn a straight attack into a flick in the middle of your action.

The lowering of the head has to be very egregious to get a call. I've only seen it called two or three times above the sectional level.

darius

[DanInMI]

You and Darius reminded me I should not think I know the T rules.

I am sorry if you felt like i was being insulting. Evidently Darius read an insult into my original post...I did not intend insult. As I am sure you know by now, I am a bit frustrarted by those that would "interpret" the rules to mean the opposite of what they actually say. I forgot that you are not one of them.

[dreadfoily]

i also realised yesterday that making it harder to flick would promote bad form.

there's a fencer here (i'll call her mary). mary fences, and whenever she goes in for a touch, usually a counter attack, she bends at her hips and ducks her head down, making it impossible to hit her chest. mary also keeps her arm bent back, so that its nearly impossible to hit her flank without flicking. and yes you could go to the back, but whenever you do this (this is true for me atleast) theres a pretty good percentage that you'll miss, because of how she squirms her body. and mary's been winning numerous competitions here, because hardly any of the girls know how to counter it, which is done most easily by flicking. so mary keeps fencing with this horrible form, thinking that she can do so well like this and that she's doing the right thing. and she also thinks, hey, if its making me win, why should i change?

and nothing makes me more furious than fencers with horrible form that still win competitions.

~Jes

I see what you mean J and wondered though if she's fencing foil or epee? But if she fences this way a lot and wins, so what, maybe she'll go on to better things, in the meanwhile if your form is correct you wont' go wrong, but I hear what you're saying, you're struggling to stay in good form and you have to fight this fencer who jumps around alot and twists, and does lots of small things maybe she's a winner, maybe you're both winners. May the best fencer win!

[DanInMI]

I'm completely ambivalent about it, despite finding ducking counterattacks a fine respite from the normal demands of Linear Electric Wire Tag...er...foil. It's very rarely penalized; I assume because the exposure of the back is such a nice inviting target that there's no reason to worry, as long as you have the composure to turn a straight attack into a flick in the middle of your action.

The lowering of the head has to be very egregious to get a call. I've only seen it called two or three times above the sectional level.

darius

I agree, I am somewhat ambivalent about it as well, because it is called so seldom.

[noodle]

re: the ducking issue

ducking is legal. you can displace the target by ducking as per t.21. but if you move your mask to cover target, you could be carded by t.22, though it probably won't ever happen. i'd personally consider throwing cards around in a situation as mentioned earlier where it exposes the back of the head to danger in some form. thats just not kosher. its like unzipping your jacket on strip.

I see what you mean J and wondered though if she's fencing foil or epee? But if she fences this way a lot and wins, so what, maybe she'll go on to better things, in the meanwhile if your form is correct you wont' go wrong, but I hear what you're saying, you're struggling to stay in good form and you have to fight this fencer who jumps around alot and twists, and does lots of small things maybe she's a winner, maybe you're both winners. May the best fencer win!

i'm 99% sure he's referring to foil. to make a long story short, this woman will plateau out in skills because she's a one trick pony, while other people will soon figure out what needs to be done and surpass her easily. just give it time.

[The0ne]

I have given a card for covering target with the mask only once, and that's probably the only time i will! It's not an often-made offence.

[JAySE SUiCiDE]

man! so many replies, so little time!..ive been in the hospital..
(well, technically I was only there for about 3 hours, but I'm soaking up as much sympathy as possible *lol*) (dislocated kneecap if anyones wondering)

jeez..I never even meant to make such a ruckus, but I'll try to get to everything.

She's a foil fencer. And as to the exact move she does, like wether she bends her head down exposing the back of her head, or just ducks, bending at her knees, its just really..really..well, unique..

and I'm not clinging to the flick- atleast, I hope I'm not! It just peeve's me to see her winning (she recently got an E, got top 64 at a Nat. event, third at a youth regional, which of course I couldn't go to because of my bad knee! ) and nobody is carding her for it. Perhaps its just cause I live in a rather small division and it hasn't been seen before this...who knows?

not to sound like someone who just doesnt want her to do well..its just the way that she's doing well that has me so annoyed.

Quoting The0ne:
just flick her on the spine decently hard. She will not try that move again.

yeah..*sigh* tried that one, but of course she did that move thing, so I ended up flicking her in the back of the head..atleast thats the rumor..then she was crying..well, she always cries anyway, I could honestly care less now anyways..

Quoting Dunastor:
(... maybe for the fun I can really start judging like sabre at a foil tournament, look what that'll do to their timing.... )

what about those of us who fence both?


thats it I think..
~Jes
ps. noodle, im a she no offence taken, I know Jayse is a guys name, my real name's Jes.

[The0ne]

so she cries, it's her fault for bending over so much. . . Don't flick ger on the back of the head on purpose, but she has to realize that it might happen if she exposes the back of her head. . . Hope your knee is feeling better!!!

[JAySE SUiCiDE]

yeah, everybody's used to her crying at this point..

oh, and I guess I didn't really explain enough..like, I was attacking, i finished my attack with a flick to the back, she ducked and it hit her in the back of the head-I didn't mean to flick her there on purpose.
and thanks! I'm definately going to summer nationals (*happy dance* ), so I'll see ya there.

~Jes

[noodle]

ps. noodle, im a she no offence taken, I know Jayse is a guys name, my real name's Jes.

whoops sorry, ambiguous name.
and its also reasonably rare to find a youngish girl who can flick well (enough to hit the back/back of the head). kudos for that.

as for this girl, what can i say? eventually she'll plateau and find herself not going anywhere with the same strategy. until then, you need to figure something out that'll work against her and let everyone else worry about her on their own time. (p.s.: top 64 at a national event isn't really that tough to do, especially in women's events (usually a lower turnout than the men's events). you only really have to win one DE against someone reasonably comparable in skills. and even then, not all the time. for example, women's sabre at the arlington div2 this year had 52 competitors. everyone was in the top 64 :P )

[michelle-epee]

i feal the changes will make foil more intreasting put the foucus on point work and blade work taking the flick hit out can only be good

[noodle]

i feal the changes will make foil more intreasting put the foucus on point work and blade work taking the flick hit out can only be good

the flick is just a part of the evolution of the game. i flick some in epee and the focus in epee is blade and point work, i don't know many reasonably good people who don't. its just another part of the arsonal which some people overuse. and the changes won't get rid of the flick, just make the target area for flicking smaller and make it harder to master.

[The0ne]

i feal the changes will make foil more intreasting put the foucus on point work and blade work taking the flick hit out can only be good

It actually won't put more focus on point work. Tomarrow's game is going to be even more distance and tempo. . . Big long attacks won't be as popular, because if you get to close you can't have the flick as an option. It's going to be all tempo and distance (basically what it is now, the changes as I have said all along are unnessicary.)