Honour, morality and happiness. Ideals and reality.

[firebrand]

How important are the issues of honour and morality to you and do see a connection with your happiness in keeping morals and honour?
Do your ideals exceed your practice and desires for yourself and others?
How do you deal with it if the reality clashes with the ideal?
Do you have any plans or aspirations for a more idealistic life and what are they?
I want to experience salvation by grace. I admire the fellows that have got there more than me...
I am also interested in what athiests think.

firebrand

[jBirch]

Honour is that which you know about yourself and that which compells you to act in a manner which is consistent with yourself. You don't lie, you don't cheat, you don't take the shortcuts simply because the easy way is harder for your person in the long run. You may win, but what good did it do you? I try to live that way. I help where I can, fight what I can, say what I believe (sometimes, stupidly), stick by my friends and try to take a deeper view of life around me.

Morals are that which tell me what actions are right and wrong. My personal morals are based on a culture of understanding, hard work, logic and courage. I, and I alone, determine what is right and wrong.

To make those work there needs to be a sense of humour, a sense of courage, discipline, self-knowledge, adaptability and a bit of a loner streak. People will not understand you and will work to make you like them, with their beliefs, opinions and actions. This is a high price to pay for your honour and your morals.

Are you smart enough to keep your mouth shut or phrase things in a way that leads people to a manipulative conclusion? Are you smart enough to recognize people manipulating you and your emotions? Can you pick your fights? Can you find victory and growth in personal defeat? Can you handle being wrong? Are you happiest when you act with honour? Are you strong enough to let the world brush past you? Are you honest enough to know when you are wrong and to take steps to correct that situation?

Can you handle being alone, ridiculed, berrated, a failure, a loser and an outcast?

[firebrand]

[COLOR=royal blue]I see morals as the love of life rather than just persons feelings or sensuality. I believe in honourig the heads of state and the marriage bed. Also as a Christian my God's name.

I think I lack success compared to my ideals. I sense strong attacks...

I see my conscience as a creation that did not evolve. I have experienced it being cleared. My ideal is for it to stay clear personally. Thus I want grace in effect here.[/COLOR]

firebrand

[jBirch]

What's honour? Who's God? How do you honour something? If you're a Christian (as I am), who told you to honour your God's name?

[wflaschka]

One thing I've noticed is that honor is very closely linked to pride. If you're prideful, you won't slip, you won't disappoint yourself, you have expectations for yourself, you'll be conscientious. Prideful people act with honor, because they can't endure the dishonor. It's tough to bribe a prideful person. At the very least, more dishonorable things are done by people with no self-respect.

There is room in pride for humility. Also, hubris isn't pride, but a defect of too much or false pride. I'm thinking Captain Hornblower, Captain Jack Aubrey pride.

Regarding religion, I find it un-useful in terms of honor, and often morality. To satisfy honor and morality, you must have expectations of yourself, and a notion of the perfectability of your living self; religion instead pushes a fear-of-punishment program, or at the very least an end-of-life review. One of my personal problems with core Christianity is its overemphasis on meekness and humility, which would render us all into Dobby the House Elf. I deal with this Nietzsche-style: The mindset is fine when you're oppressed, but when you're on top you get a lot of delicious pathos. Luckily (or not), modern Christians mostly disregard the humility aspect.

[lochinvar]

Excellent post, jBirch!! My highest compliments!

I'm an agnostic, not an atheist--though some Christians insist on making no distinction--and I believe in morals and honor.

Honor means doing the right thing, in all circumstances. Morals means knowing what the right thing to do is.

Sometimes I fall short of my own expectations. That's life. But I keep trying.

Ultimately, I have to look at myself in the shaving mirror every day. I don't want to be ashamed of what I see.

[firebrand]

In life we experience being honoured and dishonoured. We see it happen to others too.

I think pride should be balanced with humility. For a measure of self esteem that is according to the actual.

Christian humility is so that we say "God can succeed where I can't succeed", which is often the case. So more of Him and less of me.

firebrand

[jBirch]

Lochinvar,

You're just saying that 'cause, deep down in your heart of hearts, you want to be Canadian. *grin*

Firebrand,

Religion is very different from spirituality. The notion that I must surrender my will to God is, frankly, an insult to God. S/He created me. S/He experiences the magnificance of creation through my actions, fears, joys, hopes, dreams, sights, sounds, tastes, thoughts, pains and pleasures. The meekness of Christianity is a myth. Read the Book. Ravish your woman. Treasure the grain of sand. LIVE your life. There is nothing more sensual then existence.

What good have you brought to God if you've simply followed the orders of a human organisation? Christian humility is so that others can say of me what I must fight and what I must accept. True humility is the understanding that you don't know everything and that there is still a whole WORLD to experience. Believe in God and you understand that the attempt, the experience, the living is what counts, not the outcome.

What is right is that which enrichens the experience of everything/everyone you encounter. What is right is the intensity of joy. What is wrong is the termination of that experience. What is wrong is the intensity of hate and fear. Christ boiled it down, "LOVE thy neighbour". (even if they are American).

[edit]
As an aside, the submission of will is, in my opinion, the worst sin you can commit. It is easy to say that the book says that I should do one thing. It is easy to say that my pastor said that God said and so I shoul. It is hard to say that the rules are wrong. It is hard to listen to God without an instruction manual or an interpretor. S/He formed you as you are and placed the challenges s/he did. S/He left choice to you. Don't give it away for grace.
[/edit]

Take it easy.

[lochinvar]

Originally posted by jBirch
Lochinvar,

You're just saying that 'cause, deep down in your heart of hearts, you want to be Canadian. *grin*

Horrors! In that case, where's the nearest church?? I gotta sign up, if that's the antidote!! We'll excise the beast for once and all!!

[Thomas]

Honour, morality and happiness. Ideals and reality

I am not sure if I am an example of all of these. But I am told I am very benevolent. And it is true. I feel great after I help those in need. And I feel like crying after I seriously hurt someone. Its just in my nature to do good. But i have some bad blood in me and I become violent without thinking sometimes.
Yet by being aware of this problem I can control it now. So my point is that maybe if we knew ourselves better then we would be better people. Maybe that will help your question some.

[Soldier]

Honor, as the large mural in my stairwell says, is doing the right thing even when no one's looking. As the Code I live by defines it, it is not lying, cheating, stealing, or tolerating those who do. As a combination of those two, I define it as not lying, cheating, or stealing, or tolerating it from others, even if no one else is looking. And those are very broad terms - lying is even the intent to deceive, whether through words or actions or even just facial expressions. Cheating is doing anything that would give you an unfair advantage over others - that includes things down to cutting in line. Stealing is pretty obvious. Tolerating is also very broad, basically including any form of not doing everything you can to stop somebody from doing one of the former three. That is honor to me.

Morality to me is simply doing what is right, again, even when nobody is looking. And really, right and wrong can usually be defined by some extension of the above (lying, cheating, stealing, tolerating). Even my signature is basically about toleration. When things get grey and/or fuzzy, then I restort to my spirituality/religion/faith/whatever you wish to call it, for clarity. Prayer can yield amazing things, as can simple faith.

Happiness, to me, stems fundamentally from trying one's hardest to remain honorable. My girlfriend makes me extremely happy, but I have her only because I have been honorable.

Ideals and reality? In reality, we are all imperfect, and not a one of us will be always honorable. I believe, however, in working as hard as possible to become as close to perfect as possible. You'll never reach it, of course, but the effort will bring you as close as you possibly can.

[firebrand]

Surrendering your will to God is good I think. For if He wants you to enjoy life to the full, "Abundant life" then your will, will only be stronger and more dynamic for it. But I believe more in conformity than submission.

Meekness is controled strength, I don't understand your view which looks down on it. It can mean being gentle, and sensual people such as young women like that don't they? Morality needn't contradict sensuality, right? I don't believe in being religious myself. Spirituality is different.

I want to esteem myself for what I am in reality. Due esteem based upon truths. Not based upon my race for example. Moses was the humblest man alive in his day and he saw the glory of God and ate the fruits of the promised land...! His humbleness was not bad then was it?

Grace helps you in part to gain and live in God's promises such as the "abundant life" promise. Surely His umerited favour is better than judgement with those stinging creatures from the book of Revelations!

God took female from Adam. I agree with the idea that God has both male and female in Him, after all there is a Hebrew word for the motherly love of God. Yet Adam was a man.

There is sin in us and until we repent it interferes with our friendship with God who Himself is our exceedingly great reward. Heaven, full of the most extravagent and intense pleasures, with your mansion and all it's beauty along with your servants the beautiful angels and the rejoicing saints will only be the surrounds as you are rewarded, should you be saved by grace thru faith!! We need grace against sin! We accept grace better if we are humble. It is medicine for the sick. To say you are sick and not deserving is humble.

"Do not despise the day of small beginnings" and "few were wise and noble when first called".

Trust, give, surrender. To me these are increasing intensity of the same thing. You receive by faith, grace and abundant life. By surrendering to Jesus inside you can bring out meekness and goodness and joy and kindness... and very importantly agape. The latter is divine love and what friendships can come out of these!

Sometimes honour and morality means suffering too. Jesus suffered on the Cross yet deep inside there was joy for He knew it was for you, to wash away your sins... Also a woman in labour suffers pain. At the same time loves her baby's life and works for it to come out. Then the Dr slaps his or her bottom. It hurts but is good for the baby's life. God made child birth painful as a consequence to sin. And I don't count it sensual because it hurts.

There is a principle from which stems the does and don'ts, such as soldier's, no lying,... So I said with morality, "the love of life over the love of feelings" yet not excluding that latter love. But the pleasureable feeling of adultery is sinful.

Grace surely will help you reach your ideals if You adnmire Christ Jesus and accept Him by faith.

There is a whole God there to experience, the Spirit sent to earth. "Deep calls unto deep".

I believe in the Holy Trinity and His word the Bible why do you ask?

firebrand

[firebrand]

Originally posted by Thomas
I am not sure if I am an example of all of these. But I am told I am very benevolent. And it is true. I feel great after I help those in need. And I feel like crying after I seriously hurt someone. Its just in my nature to do good. But i have some bad blood in me and I become violent without thinking sometimes.
Yet by being aware of this problem I can control it now. So my point is that maybe if we knew ourselves better then we would be better people. Maybe that will help your question some.

By grace we can become changed inside effecting us outwardly. You can become meek, controled in strength and thus act gentley by trusting Jesus to give Himself into you and by trusting Him to meeken you there inside. As you "let" Jesus or "surrender" to Him.

firebrand

[wflaschka]

For if He wants you to enjoy life to the full, "Abundant life" then your will, will only be stronger and more dynamic for it.

Of course that's not true. Depending on your bible, you're only allowed 3 wives, you can't admire unmarried women, you must place God above the other gods (and you can't draw pictures of him), you must whitewash your house after the plague, you gotta turn the other cheek and love your enemy (honor and morality cast aside), you must keep your (randomly derived) sabbath day holy, you have to give honor and respect to parents (they don't have to earn it). Honor your parents -- but remember they're sinners if they divorce. No cloven-hoofed animals for food, avoid unclean people (if they put a lizard in their mouth, for example), don't lie (honor and morality aside). There is also some lovely poetry in the psalms about dashing infants' heads on rocks.

The Rules are full of thou shalt nots; in the olden days, this was great because the dietary restrictions &etc. would keep you alive. Today, there are whole classes of people who have never enjoyed fatback.

For fun, there's a monograph online about how useless the 10 commandments are as a basis for morality.

Meekness is controled strength, I don't understand your view which looks down on it. It can mean being gentle, and sensual people such as young women like that don't they?

The phrasing indicates a pathologically obsolete view of women, pre-Victorian even. "For ultra-meek models, simply order one of our far eastern breeds of young women!" Women are variously meek or self-confident, it depends on the woman. I for one have never found a reliable algebra for figuring them out; when I do, I'll be rich. But being sensuously told you can't vote -- I'm pretty sure that's not in there.

Anyhow, meekness is biting down on what you want to say. Meekness doesn't contribute -- meek people are annoying types who only hope to be used, and then complain inwardly when the decision wasn't what they wanted. They dither endlessly when you're trying to choose a restaurant. Meek people get abused, over-ridden, and oppressed -- and their very meekness is the cause of this. If they were to speak up for themselves, nearby people would credit these meek types with having desires, needs, and personality. And because meek people are always submissing, and being overridden, they think they're actually better than other people. Their inner voice grows poisonous and over-pious, over time.

Honor derives from pride; I would not expect someone who allows himself to be endlessly squashed to have any honor or pride. That said, there is nothing meek about organized religion; there's no point to meekness. The Sunday after 9/11, one TV preacher I watched said, "'Turn the other cheek' is Jesus's message that we will get revenge!" Thus, we don't have to worry that God's direct communication via the Bible keeps us from having pride or honor, because the message is largely ignored.

[Soldier]

I love how people can read (incorrect translations of) the ten commandments, literally, in reference to random periods of time, and then say they don't work.

First, and most obvious: It's not "thou shalt not kill", it's "thou shalt not murder". The original Hebrew word was the (distinct) verb for "murder", as opposed to a quite different verb for "kill". The difference is that murder implies wrongdoing. If I take a guy's life for his wallet, that's murder. If I take his life to save my own because he was after my wallet, that's killing. I have no problem with killing (hence I'm in the military), but murder is definitely up there in terms of evil.

Second: You can't read them literally! That's what I hate about society today - people always finding loopholes. They find something that wasn't quite explicitly prohibited thanks to some weird twist of wording and/or definitions, then say they can get away with it. So often I want to just slap them and say "You know what (s)he means by it!" Do the same thing with the commandments. Read them for what they're trying to tell you, not for what was explicitly said thousands of years, many re-tellings, and several translations ago.

1. No gods before me - Keep God as #1 in your life. He should be the top priority, on top of money, pride, success, etc.

2. No idols (graven images) - Go ahead, draw pictures of goats with your crayons. Just don't give any powers to things. Basically, it's something of an extension of the last commandment, might address things such as superstitions - if you believe that stupid black cat (or that email chain letter) really have any power over your life, then you're attributing power to something over God.

3. Don't take my name in vain - Most literally, don't use His name all the time, unless you're actually talking to/about him. It just devalues it. Pretty simple concept. More figuratively, don't get profane, as it's disrespecting somebody - either a person you're insulting, or anybody who hears you swearing in general, because it's offensive. This last reading is a lot more interpretation, and I'm not even sure how much stock I put in it.

4. Keep the Sabbath - Yes, yes, I know people all have different days for Sabbaths (early Christians changed it from Saturday to Sunday in honor of the day Christ rose). So just keep whatever Sabbath you personally have, whether it be Saturday or Sunday or every third odd-numbered day of the month. I don't care. The idea is that you take a day out of your busy life to just stop and devote some time to God. Otherwise, it's really easy to just get wrapped up in doing your own thing and forget about the rest.

5. Honor your parents - Doesn't mean you have to respect them, or like them, or love them, or anything. It just means that yes, because they brought you into this world, they do deserve a bit of credit for that, basically. Why would you want to dishonor them too much, anyway? You're of them. I'd need to read about this one again, I'm a little fuzzier on it now than I used to be.

6. Don't murder - Pretty simple, as long as you get the wording right.

7. No adultery - Hey, marriage vows are a sacred thing, usually made before God. Even if you don't make them before God, they're still a legal contract (most places). So don't screw them up. And that's not even considering the obvious issues of oh, betraying the person you're supposed to be madly in love with, etc. I suppose this could possibly, depending on definitions, extrapolations, and translations, be extended to "no sex before marriage", but I don't really know.

8. Don't steal - Duh.

9. Don't bear false witness (don't lie) - Also pretty simple.

10. Don't covet - None of us are really going to be able to keep this one always, but covetousness is usually one of the prime causes of breaking some of the other commandments - adultery, theft, murder, etc. Just a good thing to stay away from, if possible.


And of course, these are only base guidelines.

As for pride, honor, etc. - I have pride and honor linked differently. I do not avenge myself, etc., out of honor because my pride demands it (wflaschka); rather, I am proud because I have honor. Honor, as I said, stems from following the code I outlined earlier - and while sometimes diplomacy is best (some may call it meekness), there is also no honor in standing by and watching a wrong go uncorrected. Honor does not derive from pride; pride derives from honor. And even then, one must be careful of pride. Pride should not be "Look what I can do/have done!", but rather "Look what God let me do/gave to me!"

"I said to the Lord, 'You are my Lord. Apart from you I have no good thing.'" -- One of the Psalms

Yes, it says 'the meek shall inherit the Earth', but I'm pretty sure that's rather figurative. I would imagine it means more along the lines of "the people who weren't busy out murdering, conquering, thieving, will get the rewards in the end."

[wflaschka]

I love how people can read (incorrect translations of)... Read them for what they're trying to tell you, not for what was explicitly said...

I agree that unclarity is an aspect of the bible. And that is given the incredible origination of the King James version. The best linguistic and theological experts of an age, who could read Greek and Latin with every-day ease, some of whom could chat in aramaic, working together for years from the best sources available in the world, subsidized by a government -- probably the most comprehensive theological pursuit in the history of man, before or since. Dozens of scholars and geniuses with classical educations in a room, discussing theology -- what I'd give to have been there! I'd take the KJB over anything produced by, say, <I>The Multnomah Bible School of Oregon</I> or something. And yet, there are adequate inconsistencies in the KJB to keep one busy for years, trying to shore up the presentation.

Second: You can't read them literally!

Depending on who you come across, the bible is to be read either literally or rationally. If it's not read literally, then there's wiggle room with every vague injunction from God or his messengers. To get rid of the wiggle room, many people do read it literally, so that they have room for their disgust with gay clergymen (for example) -- but then they must execute stunning displays of bipolar thinking (President Bush's "personal philospher" is Christ, and he executed huge numbers of convicts). Either the bible is non-literal and pretty, or it's a communication from God with social importance. If there's nothing "to" the Bible, or if the translation is always somehow not "right" to suite one's mindset, then one might as well use any ole book as a guide to the conscience. The Harry Potter books are widely read, and cross-generational!

Soldier's contemporary interpretation of the 10 Commandments seems nicely in step with an enlightened view of the world. In 10 years or 100, the take will be different. Changeability of religion is its strength; it keeps up with our needs. This is why the (non-literal, but rather poetical) approach of the KJV is so enduring: it works with the messiness of human life, and can be spread thinly or thickly where needed.

Overall, we can't just "get people to read the bible right," it's not possible. Generally speaking, averaged through history, only a few hundred people a day have been murdered over differences in Biblical interpretation. As always (and certainly today), the blood and suffering is the fault of the Christians, and not the Bible -- but the Bible certainly seems to fail as a guide, because the Christians don't even obey the governing spirit of the gospels. I'm convinced it's man-made social conventions (like rule of law and government) that keep social order. Western law is built around notions of the Golden Rule and proportional punishment, from the Bible -- these are adequate for determining most morality, however they are also pre-biblical.

[firebrand]

I really don't see the connection between my ideas qouoted then followed by the idea of 3 wives. Also I'll point out that I follow the Christian Bible. I don't see why you would even mention one wife. What are you on about there?

Abundant life is Jesus promise of a good full life of peace and Joys, but not sinful ones, as it is in the Gospels. On earth as it is in heaven.

Meek people aren't just weak people they can be the strongest personalities, which control, to the effect of no harm by violence where something is best treated gently. It is wise.

It is wise not to be uncontrolabley violent and common sense not to grip powerfully an egg if you are cooking.

From my view girls that are aggressive are less common and some are called tomboys, that is these days. Girls don't like to be yanked and punched do they? I agree tho there are all sorts.

The capture of Saddam Hussein today was an example of meekness. Not a bombing but a search.

The Bible should be read with reference to itself from other parts on the same issues... and according to the Spirit of it's author. The Spirit teaches and convinces. Among the christian revalists is a progression and retainment of things from it's beginnings with Martin Luther. But I can say that revival began with even the early descendants of Adam, they called on the name of the Lord. We mustn't forget Isaiah too...

firebrand

[Swordsman]

Originally posted by wflaschka
I agree that unclarity is an aspect of the bible. And that is given the incredible origination of the King James version. The best linguistic and theological experts of an age, who could read Greek and Latin with every-day ease, some of whom could chat in aramaic, working together for years from the best sources available in the world, subsidized by a government -- probably the most comprehensive theological pursuit in the history of man, before or since. Dozens of scholars and geniuses with classical educations in a room, discussing theology -- what I'd give to have been there! I'd take the KJB over anything produced by, say, <I>The Multnomah Bible School of Oregon</I> or something. And yet, there are adequate inconsistencies in the KJB to keep one busy for years, trying to shore up the presentation.

Depending on who you come across, the bible is to be read either literally or rationally. If it's not read literally, then there's wiggle room with every vague injunction from God or his messengers. To get rid of the wiggle room, many people do read it literally, so that they have room for their disgust with gay clergymen (for example) -- but then they must execute stunning displays of bipolar thinking (President Bush's "personal philospher" is Christ, and he executed huge numbers of convicts). Either the bible is non-literal and pretty, or it's a communication from God with social importance. If there's nothing "to" the Bible, or if the translation is always somehow not "right" to suite one's mindset, then one might as well use any ole book as a guide to the conscience. The Harry Potter books are widely read, and cross-generational!

Soldier's contemporary interpretation of the 10 Commandments seems nicely in step with an enlightened view of the world. In 10 years or 100, the take will be different. Changeability of religion is its strength; it keeps up with our needs. This is why the (non-literal, but rather poetical) approach of the KJV is so enduring: it works with the messiness of human life, and can be spread thinly or thickly where needed.

Overall, we can't just "get people to read the bible right," it's not possible. Generally speaking, averaged through history, only a few hundred people a day have been murdered over differences in Biblical interpretation. As always (and certainly today), the blood and suffering is the fault of the Christians, and not the Bible -- but the Bible certainly seems to fail as a guide, because the Christians don't even obey the governing spirit of the gospels. I'm convinced it's man-made social conventions (like rule of law and government) that keep social order. Western law is built around notions of the Golden Rule and proportional punishment, from the Bible -- these are adequate for determining most morality, however they are also pre-biblical.

Ah, but those murders aren't the fault of the Christians, either, no more than I'll attribute the various terrorist activities of the past few years to Mustlims. Rather, all of these are the fault of violent extremists who call(ed) themselves Christian (or Muslim) but were in fact far too evil to really be such. I unfortunately know plenty of "Christians" who are not Christians at all.

[jeff]

Originally posted by firebrand
The capture of Saddam Hussein today was an example of meekness. Not a bombing but a search.

Certainly not. It has nothing to do with being meek. We knew where he was and we wanted him alive to stand trial, rather than be an anonymous speck of DNA that would never convince anyone that he had been killed. Bombing was what we tried when we didn't have tactical control of where he was.

I don't even want to go near the rest of the material in these posts...

[wflaschka]

Originally posted by firebrand
[B][COLOR=royalblue]I really don't see the connection between my ideas qouoted then followed by the idea of 3 wives.

Earlier, you wrote 'He wants you to enjoy life to the full...' and I was just showing how of course that's not true. There are many restrictions, caveats, must-do's, and thou-shalt-nots. You're restricted in the number of wives you can have, for example -- if you want eight, then too bad! If you want to enjoy your neighbor's motorbike, well, you're not allowed to steal it.

Religion has also variously forbidden banking (because of usury), airplane flying, innoculations, condoms, foreskins, much literature, tomatoes (outlawed for a while in Boston I think).

What God wants is submission and adherence. Joy and leisure are not for this life, but the reward of the next. In the next life, we will be able to sing praises to him 24/7, &etc. &etc., but in this life we suffer under sin and are afflicted with the dark designs of devils. Strictly speaking, life on earth is the curse (it's a "vale of tears," a "mortal coil" along which we shuffle), and life in heaven is the release. Some early medieval representations of hell are green -- because green was the most hellish color imaginable, green being the color of nature outside the peasant hovel.

Anyhoo, this "god wants you to enjoy stuff" notion is a recent phenomenon, touchy feely, part of the "Me generation" thing -- derived as a reaction to the Depression, but also (I think) to the psychological load of many organized religions. Catholic guilt, jewish guilt -- they need healthy ameliorative doses of, "Hey, I'm special!" Prior to this newfangled concept of self-love, we were supposed to love ourselves as we love our neighbors -- with some distance, and frequent judgement.